Another nail in the coffin

[ringer]

EG-I got very bad news for ya. Our generation will be gone but my year old grandson is wearing camo and I bought him a new bass boat and three guns already. Getting him an ATV in a couple of years and teaching him to kick hugger ass. It aint over till its over.

 

[BigHornRam]

"That's the great thing about our country, You figure out how to tear it down, and someone makes money. Then they'll figure out how to rebuild it, and someone else makes money. And then someone will do a study,and they will make money. It's a great big beautiful circle that makes our country so great!"

So true!

That reminds me of a good example.

In Moscow ID in the 90s a bunch of libs got a $100,000 grant to turn the creek in town back into a meandering brook. About 20 years prior it was straightened out so the water would flow quickly through town in an effort to reduce freqent flooding. I was talking to the excavator who was hired to do the work and he just laughed. He said his dad got the job to straighten the stream, he had the job to make it crooked again and his son would most likely get the job to straighten it again. Well about a month after they did this we got a big flood and all the work they had done with stream side vegitation was washed away. Even the dead tree they stuck in the ground was barely standing. So they went out and got another grant.

 

[BigHornRam]

Matt,

I would be in favor of eliminating ALL subsidies. You just want to pick and chose which to eliminate and which to expand. Barge traffic is subsidized, rail is subsidized, as well a road transport, airlines, wildlife biologists, education, arts, ect...........

I don't think Cali's brother would have made that comment if he knew it was going to be pasted into a public forum. I'm sure he wouldn't make it to the face of Palouse grain farmer. He ought to be gratefull for living in a country prosperous enough to support his job. He ought to spend more time considering that, and less time watching Michael Moore documentaries.

Here something to consider to put this all in prospective. Every USFWS employee could take a year off of work at the same time and vitually no one would know they did. If every American Farmer took the same year off, EVERYONE would know they did.

Oh, and before you get to kean on this breaching idea, wait and see how the mill town dam removal works out first. We can use this example as more relistic source for costs to under take such a project.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

BHR - you are awful judgmental about a person you have never met, based upon a single comment.

You are as guilty as you accuse him of being, by your generalizations about "gubmint" workers. Hypocrite.

By the way, get too nasty and foul-mouthed, and your posts will go away.

 

[BigHornRam]

Cali,

I based my opinion of him on his entire commentary, not just one comment. I also based it on your response as well about his feelings for Bush. I'd wager him and Buzz would be busom buddies if they met. And I've heard enough garbage out of Buzz's mouth to last a life time. I got a long way to go before I come close to Buzz's level of nastyness so when his posts start to go bye bye, I'll know where the line is.

 

[MattK]

BHR- Without subsidies the heart of the root would collapse and become less than what it is now. Then more transplants could live there. I haven't seen any booming industry up there lately.

Mill town dam is a great example. One major difference though, it would have been torn down long ago if it wasn't for the extraction industry sending all the dirty water to settle behind it. One more reason mining sucks. The fish in that water probably glow in the dark. The cost is still going to be less in the long run. At some point that dam would have to go because of lack of maintenance. I wonder how much money the state would have to put into it for maintenance in the next 100 years? Which is less expensive in your mind?

 

[BigHornRam]

MattK,

I'm not opposed to the milltown dam removal. I'm just using it as an example of projected costs to remove it will come no where close to actual costs. Didn't most of the hot sediment come down to the dam about 100 years ago? The way we mine today is a lot differnt today than back then thank goodness. We will be paying a large price for past mistakes in this instance. When the dam is removed, you can't deny that there will be a huge amount of hot sediments that will be swept downstream to fill in behind the next dam, which will cause a whole new problem to deal with. It is facts like this that are never addressed when the dam breaching issue is brought up. Guys like IT and Gunner dance around it and never address it. Can you address it?

 

[Ithaca 37]

BHR, "Guys like IT and Gunner dance around it and never address it. Can you address it?" Simpleton. We've explained it at least a couple times. If you understood breaching you wouldn't even make such a stupid comment. I like the dam breaching topics, though, because they are the best ones for showing that you are an idiot.

 

[BigHornRam]

IT,

I have a bad memory. Explain it to me one more time.

 

[ringer]

hump BHR-I think breaching is when IT bends over and Buzz breaches him. hump

 

[MattK]

ringer- sounds like your kinda caught up on the homo stuff. Are you trying to tell us all something? If the closet is too confining just come on out.

 

[ringer]

I'm out dude. Glad yer interested. Lets's do a hunt together and you can be the receiver. I'll bring my .44 and my banjo. You girls are a hoot!

 

[MattK]

Sorry- you may shoot that way, I don't. Oh- not really interested just seems a lot of your posts deal with it.

 

[BigHornRam]

Girls,

This aint the dating game. Get a room or take a shower. Grasshopper, you going to skate like IT just did?

 

[MattK]

BHR- what's the question?

 

[Ithaca 37]

BHR, "IT, I have a bad memory. Explain it to me one more time."

Admit you're a fool and say "Please" and I'll consider it. Otherwise, do your own research. Start here with the basics:

http://www.snakeriversalmon.org/index.html

Any simpleton who thinks they can defend the dams should read this site first. Start with "The Myths" and "The Economics", move on to "Dams and Energy", then the rest. You'll even find a picture of what a breached dam will look like. That will be a huge revelation to some of you. Once you have read and re-read the basic concepts enough to start realizing how much you don't know, continue on to a few more articles:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=why++breach+snake+river+dams+&btnG=Search

Then, if you come back and tell us how bad the silt problem will be, how many farms will go out of business, how much electricity won't be generated and all the rest of your BS, be prepared to look like an idiot.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Another "commentary" or "opinion"....

_____________________________________

In 2000, the federal agency National Oceanic and Atmosphere Administration Fisheries reported that four dams on the lower Columbia River and four dams on the lower Snake River are the greatest source of human-inflicted mortality on Idaho's salmon and steelhead.

In looking at 1994-1999 data, NOAA Fisheries' scientists report that 60 percent of juvenile steelhead and spring chinook perish during their downstream migration through these eight dams and reservoirs. For juvenile fall chinook, mortality is over 90 percent. Injuries from the hydropower system also contribute to mortality once the fish reach the ocean but to what extent is undetermined. Mortality rates for Idaho sockeye are unknown as they are simply too few in numbers to count, but "clearly the risk of extinction is very high."

Within the federal 2000 Biological Opinion were 199 actions that would be taken over the coming years to promote self-sustaining populations of endangered salmon and steelhead. Chief among these actions was a check-in plan to monitor the effect of the other actions. If the downward trend of populations were not reversed, NOAA Fisheries would ask Congress to consider removal of the four lower Snake River dams.

But that was then and this is now.

One month ago, NOAA Fisheries removed these key provisions of the 2000 Biological Opinion, stating, "Based upon the review of the current status of stocks, the updated jeopardy analysis, and the lack of certainty in obtaining congressional appropriation and authorization, the Army Corps Engineers has determined inclusion of contingency planning for dam breaching is not appropriate."

This month's "Citizen Update—Making Progress for Salmon and Steelhead" further states that "Because the dams were built before the fish were listed under Endangered Species Act, NOAA Fisheries is evaluating the dams as part of the pre-existing conditions." So even though runs took a precipitous decline after the lower Snake River dams were built, the dams' existence will no longer be considered as an impediment to Idaho's salmon recovery.

For those that are keeping count, 27 adult sockeye salmon returned to Idaho this year. Sediment study of Redfish Lake indicates that for thousands of years, 20,000 to 30,000 adult sockeye would return to spawn in this lake. Over 50 tons of carbon, nitrogen and phosphorous were imported from the ocean by these returning fish every year for millennia. Alturas, Pettit, Yellow Belly and Stanley Lakes once hosted spawning sockeye as well. As you head north over Galena Summit, you can easily locate these lakes as a weakened forest devastated by mountain pine beetles surrounds them. Recall that trees need three things: sunlight, nutrients and water. Is there a relationship here?

Are the Lower Snake River dams here to stay? Will Idaho ever again host self-sustaining runs of salmon and steelhead? I for one do not know and often wonder as to what others think. Can any of us really make a difference? Enjoy your holiday and don't forget to think.

 

[ringer]

Are you saying the sockeye is the reason for all this bickering? I am 56 and never seen or heard of a sockeye wild or otherwise in that drainage. Are you wanting to breach dams to bring back sockeye salmon? If so maybe we can dig up some dna and bring back the dinosauers to make the huggers happy. Buy a couple of packages at the store.

 

[Ithaca 37]

ringer, "Are you saying the sockeye is the reason for all this bickering?" Do the articles only mention sockeye? Please try reading my links and EG's post again real slow before showing any more ignorance of the dam breaching issue. We're really trying hard to help you keep from looking as stupid as BHR.

 

[MattK]

Ithaca- You may need a lot help with keeping ringer from sounding like BHR. They both tend to be on the same wave length. Neither have a real clue, ringer is just now figuring out we're talking about salmon.