American prairie. What's the issue?

[SAJ-99]

I have a soft spot for small business owners getting squeezed out by corporate might, personally. This isn't that much different in many regards.

Walmart versus the mom & pop store, local feed stores versus larger stores in bigger towns, etc. Our economics in this nation are crony capitalism and hurt the average American. I don't think there's much difference between supporting a local rancher over the Wilks than there is in supporting your local sporting goods store over Cabelas.

Agree. Forgot to add that ranchers hate the Wilkes as much as they hate the APR, so they are consistent in that respect. I could easily be convinced the the vast majority of ranchers don't even like each other. They just fake it in case there is a grass fire or something that requires them to work together. I have also been told outfitters hate other outfitters. Although they seem to pull together every couple of years to make sure a new rule is drawn top that benefits them all. My general conclusion is a lot of people who choose these professions are insufferable human beings, probably from working in isolation most of the time. You can chicken-egg that over a holiday dinner.

It's a joke. I have met a few ranchers and some outfitters that are not insufferable human beings.

 

[Southern Elk]

I would like to own a big ranch one day. It will never happen because the wealthy are willing to pay more than the ag production value of property. Normal folks would need for a ranch to cash flow. The wealthy do not. The days of the working class owning large western ranches are over, unless one is passed down to you. That leaves us to choose between the wealthy and the APR. I'll choose the APR every time. At least I have the opportunity to enjoy the land that they own.

 

[sclancy27]

Agree. Forgot to add that ranchers hate the Wilkes as much as they hate the APR, so they are consistent in that respect. I could easily be convinced the the vast majority of ranchers don't even like each other. They just fake it in case there is a grass fire or something that requires them to work together. I have also been told outfitters hate other outfitters. Although they seem to pull together every couple of years to make sure a new rule is drawn top that benefits them all. My general conclusion is a lot of people who choose these professions are insufferable human beings, probably from working in isolation most of the time. You can chicken-egg that over a holiday dinner.

It's a joke. I have met a few ranchers and some outfitters that are not insufferable human beings.

I would argue most people are insufferable human beings, regardless of vocation.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I would argue most people are insufferable human beings, regardless of vocation.

A more universal axiom has not been written.

I would like to own a big ranch one day. It will never happen because the wealthy are willing to pay more than the ag production value of property. Normal folks would need for a ranch to cash flow. The wealthy do not. The days of the working class owning large western ranches are over, unless one is passed down to you. That leaves us to choose between the wealthy and the APR. I'll choose the APR every time. At least I have the opportunity to enjoy the land that they own.

I'd like to think that through careful market manipulation and programs designed to create more young agriculturalists and less large-scale production farms based solely on output, we could once again be that nation that Ed Abbey had in mind. That requires a lot of action at the highest levels, and at the lowest.

 

[rogerthat]

Lots of rancher stereotypes in this thread. They come in all shapes, sizes, and ideologies much like every other type of people. I can be guilty so not chastising anyone. You would be surprised some of the opinions they have on things. Full disclosure: this is coming from the son of a rancher.

 

[Ought Six]

A more universal axiom has not been written.



I'd like to think that through careful market manipulation and programs designed to create more young agriculturalists and less large-scale production farms based solely on output, we could once again be that nation that Ed Abbey had in mind. That requires a lot of action at the highest levels, and at the lowest.

Could always find yourself a farm/ranch girl who’s family has a pile of acres and no brothers with any interest in it, have a couple buddies that went that route

 

[BrentD]

I would like to own a big ranch one day. It will never happen because the wealthy are willing to pay more than the ag production value of property. Normal folks would need for a ranch to cash flow. The wealthy do not. The days of the working class owning large western ranches are over, unless one is passed down to you. That leaves us to choose between the wealthy and the APR. I'll choose the APR every time. At least I have the opportunity to enjoy the land that they own.

You can be sure that, had I won last $1B lottery, I would buy the biggest chunk of Wyoming that I find and become one of those insufferable ranchers.

I did NOT win the lottery, so you can all breath easy, but some would say I've got that "insufferable" part down pat.

 

[Southern Elk]

I'd like to think that through careful market manipulation and programs designed to create more young agriculturalists and less large-scale production farms based solely on output, we could once again be that nation that Ed Abbey had in mind. That requires a lot of action at the highest levels, and at the lowest.

While that may be possible on more fertile ground, it may never happen again in the west. An acre of ground in the South East US will carry 20 times the livestock that ranch land in Montana will. Price per acre is often the same in both places. It doesn’t pencil out.

 

[BuzzH]

I have a soft spot for small business owners getting squeezed out by corporate might, personally. This isn't that much different in many regards.

Walmart versus the mom & pop store, local feed stores versus larger stores in bigger towns, etc. Our economics in this nation are crony capitalism and hurt the average American. I don't think there's much difference between supporting a local rancher over the Wilks than there is in supporting your local sporting goods store over Cabelas.

Well, I might feel a bit more sorry for the mom and pop store, family farmer, local feed stores and Eric Albus if they didn't adamantly support politicians that are breaking it off in their ass.

Who do they think is passing laws that allow crony capitalism, large mergers, corporate farmers to gobble up subsidies, etc etc etc?

I say you get what you vote for...find another shoulder to cry on.

 

[Irrelevant]

Mom and Pop store, has/had a helluva lot harder go vertically integrating the a beef producer does. My family buys beer direct from the rancher. He has small subs to the the processing. We get it for <costco and he makes more than if he sold wholesale. It's not his entire business, but he's mentioned it makes enough to be worth it, and more importantly connects his operations with his community. It's a lot harder to hate on the place you get your meat from.

I think any non-feed lot ranchers are missing out on a lot of consumers, by simply doing what's easy; what everyone else is doing, instead of trying to go direct to consumers.

 

[406dn]

I'd like to think that through careful market manipulation and programs designed to create more young agriculturalists and less large-scale production farms based solely on output, we could once again be that nation that Ed Abbey had in mind. That requires a lot of action at the highest levels, and at the lowest.

You might like to think it, but that is a pipe dream.

Uncle Sam has bent over backwards for what...150 years to put and keep people on the land. From homesteading land, to crop subsidies, to crop insurance programs, to soil conservation programs and on and on.

Two of my uncles were farmers in eastern North Dakota, better farmland than most farmers work. It was still a difficult living, with many things beyond their control that could crush their bottom line. Each was hardworking and smart. One of their sons farmed the land for another generation. Another son leased out land to others to farm. Now all of that land has been sold to another farm family that maybe can hold onto it for one more generation.

I too wish we could freeze time, sometimes, but we can't.

 

[Eric Albus]

I take issue with your analogy likening the AP to the Copper Baron and to railroad ownership, as well as the implication that AP is "a Billionaire landowner class". One reason that paupers such as I get to camp at the Buffalo Camp for $12 a night and get to access the vast prairie lands is that financial support is comprised to a large extent from donations sent to AP by the "paupers".
So far there has been no explanation of how the AP is adversely impacting the agricultural economy of that area of Montana. To the contrary, AP's agricultural operations, tourism, educational programs, and supportive logistics provide a real boost to the economy, keeping gas stations, retail outlets, restaurants and other services afloat in an area with a decreasing population. Furthermore, AP has partnered with neighboring ranchers who continue to graze cattle on a significant portion of AP lands, maintaining a strong ranching ag industry.

Those naysaying ranchers and others who continually carp about how AP is hurting their income and the ag industry overall have yet to explain HOW!

So, although I too empathize with Eric, as both sets of my grandparents homesteaded the Big Flat of the Turner-Hogeland area, and my grandfather went broke supporting farmers and ranchers during the depression as a general store owner and ag equipment dealer, yet the nexus between AP and those experiencing hard times is a real mystery to me.

So, it is all about “ME” and “$12 a night, basically free, recreation for “ME”.

Donations sent by paupers? The Chinese and other foreign investors may take offense to that. The Mars family(who allowed Zero public access on the diamond cross when they owned it would take offense as well at being termed “paupers”.

It isn’t Ben likening the APF to the robber barons, it is we, the ranch community of Eastern Montana. Just us “serfs”.
We(real ranch families ) can’t compete with the likes of the Wilks and other wealthy absentee landowners. We have no chance against a “non-profit” like APF or the Deseret Land Co..
I don’t like having to compete with the State of Mt either, but I’d rather see the State buy land than the aforementioned.

 

[406dn]

Let's be real, the state is not going to buy the land. If they tried there would be a similar backlash. Same thing if the feds bought up the land.

There is a reason the APR is buying the land, there simply aren't other buyers willing or able to pay the "market" price.

I wish that this part of the world received the moisture that makes agriculture reliably profitable, but it just doesn't.

 

[antlerradar]

The Mars family(who allowed Zero public access on the diamond cross when they owned it would take offense as well at being termed “paupers”.

I would not say Zero, Granted you were not going to be turned loose to hunt unsupervised or get to shoot a 360 bull or 180 buck without paying top dollar, but there were plenty of cow and management buck and bull hunts were the hunters paid very little.

 

[Eric Albus]

I would not say Zero, Granted you were not going to be turned loose to hunt unsupervised or get to shoot a 360 bull or 180 buck without paying top dollar, but there were plenty of cow and management buck and bull hunts were the hunters payed very little.

Fair enuf.

 

[Eric Albus]

Well, I might feel a bit more sorry for the mom and pop store, family farmer, local feed stores and Eric Albus if they didn't adamantly support politicians that are breaking it off in their ass.

Who do they think is passing laws that allow crony capitalism, large mergers, corporate farmers to gobble up subsidies, etc etc etc?

I say you get what you vote for...find another shoulder to cry on.

I’ll deal with the consequences of my vote, and the effects to my business’.

The guys “breaking it off” are the ones pushing for open borders, free money to stay home, and my favorite “wear a mask”.

I’d hang myself before I voted for the party of Bernie, AOC, infanticide and socialism.

 

[BuzzH]

I’ll deal with the consequences of my vote, and the effects to my business’.

The guys “breaking it off” are the ones pushing for open borders, free money to stay home, and my favorite “wear a mask”.

I’d hang myself before I voted for the party of Bernie, AOC, infanticide and socialism.

All the whining you do I'd say you aren't dealing very well with the consequences of your vote.

There still are robber barons in Montana, take off the blinders and you'll see them when you cast that ballot...

 

[BuzzH]

Let's be real, the state is not going to buy the land. If they tried there would be a similar backlash. Same thing if the feds bought up the land.

There is a reason the APR is buying the land, there simply aren't other buyers willing or able to pay the "market" price.

I wish that this part of the world received the moisture that makes agriculture reliably profitable, but it just doesn't.

True story. Governor Gordon threw a temper tantrum when the BLM purchased the Morton Ranch in Wyoming earlier this year.

Didn't hear him complain when Stan Kroenke bought half of carbon county.

If it benefits the public and not a corporation or the wealthy, he hates it.

 

[SAJ-99]

I’ll deal with the consequences of my vote, and the effects to my business’.

The guys “breaking it off” are the ones pushing for open borders, free money to stay home, and my favorite “wear a mask”.

I’d hang myself before I voted for the party of Bernie, AOC, infanticide and socialism.

You get the government you deserve. Seems you are more upset APR follows the rules that government created and is thriving. BTW, Hope you got your application for that free money in.

Emergency Relief Program

www.fsa.usda.gov

 

[Straight Arrow]

So, it is all about “ME” and “$12 a night, basically free, recreation for “ME”.

Absolutely! You nailed it; it's all about ME, the masses embodied, that is PUBLIC ACCESS to open prairie lands for hunting and other recreational endeavors.