American prairie. What's the issue?

[atlas]

At the open house, (I posted about earlier) I was told that dispersed camping on the properties is totally free. Both of the staff members presenting were hunters. One of them seemed very into hunting. They acknowledged that most of their visitors are hunters in the fall.

Another interesting thing is that aside from having a drawing for the public bison harvest, they told us they have a separate staff drawing for the bison harvest. That seems to be some evidence that they aren't secretly a bunch of anti-hunters.

Talking to them after the presentation, I mentioned this thread and they were aware of it. They must have appreciated some of the defense they've been getting on here.

 

[Nameless Range]

Like the N-bar or Sunlight? I get your point, but it seems the opposition is very APR specific. All ranching/farming is becoming an activity that requires large scale to be profitable.

Yes, the N-Bar, or Weyerhaeuser, or any non-public contingent owning hundreds of thousands of acres of earth. I agree the opposition to APR, sure appears to be something different - a politically prescribed boogeyman -but either way, I can sympathize with the concern in at least one genuine aspect - of “big money” on the landscape.

 

[TheTone]

Yes, the N-Bar, or Weyerhaeuser, or any non-public contingent owning hundreds of thousands of acres of earth. I agree the opposition to APR, sure appears to be something different - a politically prescribed boogeyman -but either way, I can sympathize with the concern in at least one genuine aspect - of “big money” on the landscape.

It’s way more acceptable for a giant timber company to acquire land through shady deals, land swaps, or just being given it and then absolutely plunder it leaving it a moonscape and charge for access than for a group to pay fair market value to willing sellers, improve habitat for native species and then allow people to just freely go on that land

 

[300stw]

does APR have numerous employees? do they pay taxes? are the farming and selling a commodity?

are there large landowners in other states that own 4 or 5 hundred thousand acres? do those places allow public access? do they pay taxes and have employees? do they raise and sell a commodity?

theres only so much land , there is an increasing number of very wealthy individuals that value buying land in large quantities all over, is there laws against that?
when the local areas change due to landownership changes, i understand it can be disconcerning,, i own some acreage in 3 differnt states, i dont have enough power to buy more or change the landscape, times are a changing, i cant say good or bad, just asking questions in an open forum, every one has value to their opinion,

so far from my standpoint, i cant see the damage APR is doing yet, or what it may be in the future, maybe others can

 

[sclancy27]

Regardless of the rest of this discussion, I think this is an incredibly important statement and I find myself agreeing with Eric to a certain degree.

Talking with another rancher/outfitter outside of Winifred, he said it a bit differently relative to AP and the Billionaire landowner class taking over Montana, and how he said it really struck a chord with me:

"It feels like we're becoming serfs."

It's a sentiment that deserves some contemplation. As Americans, we have the philosophy that our freedom is central to who we are as a people. That freedom manifests itself in a lot of different ways. For guys like Eric, it's the ability to make a decent living off the land, living a lifestyle that if we're honest, everyone on this website yearns for to some degree.

It's not a new sentiment either. Back when the landed gentry were controlling the range between the 1860's and 1910's, we had range wars over who could use the range - either the wealthy cattle barons or the scrappy homesteaders & free grazers. The Scotts, Germans, English all owned mega ranches and tried to dominate the landscape and the politics of the era. Those who were able to stay did so by the skin of their teeth and the grit of their determination.

It's not that much different than the miners in Butte who fought against William Clark's Machine, the Railworkers struggling for basic human decency in getting some actual sick leave against the hedge fund owned company that thinks they are automatons, etc.

There's a basic desire for self-determination that all people have, and the people who live on the land in eastern Montana are struggling here to keep that. While I am supportive of AP, I also think we all could do a better job realizing what the objections that folks have really are and the fact that they are legitimate rather than try to undermine those concerns if they don't match our own.

Empathy can be a wonderful, and it can help find solutions where we only think conflict can exist.

That is exactly what is happening and it is happening from all directions on a bunch of issues.

 

[Irrelevant]

Farmers and ranchers are cash poor and asset rich. They'd be asset poorer too if it weren't for AP propping up the real estate market.

I push back on the idea that people are entitled to make a living off the land. Anything the land provides is a gift. Use it wisely, manage it wisely; innovate or adapt. Just because you great grand pappy plowed virgin soil twice a year and made a living on corn while watching 10,000 years of top soil blow away doesn't mean you're entitled to do the same. The friggin' whoa is me mentality from some people is ridiculous. Does it hurt having your hand out for that long?

 

[Ben Lamb]

USDA has to report on the amount of lands in the United States owned by foriegn entities (including companies and governments). The 1978 Agricultural Foreign Investments Act has a lot of this data publicly available.

https://www.fsa.usda.gov/Assets/USDA-FSA-Public/usdafiles/EPAS/PDF/2020_afida_annual_report.pdf

 

[TheTone]

Farmers and ranchers are cash poor and asset rich. They'd be asset poorer too if it weren't for AP propping up the real estate market.

I hate to think what one of the ranchers I know that is always complaining about money could raise if he just started taking loads of scrap metal and junk cars and trucks off his land

 

[Beignet]

USDA has to report on the amount of lands in the United States owned by foriegn entities (including companies and governments). The 1978 Agricultural Foreign Investments Act has a lot of this data publicly available.

https://www.fsa.usda.gov/Assets/USDA-FSA-Public/usdafiles/EPAS/PDF/2020_afida_annual_report.pdf

Thanks for posting this. Saw a lot of foreign ag presence on a recent drive west of here and was curious as to the extent.

 

[SAJ-99]

Regardless of the rest of this discussion, I think this is an incredibly important statement and I find myself agreeing with Eric to a certain degree.

Talking with another rancher/outfitter outside of Winifred, he said it a bit differently relative to AP and the Billionaire landowner class taking over Montana, and how he said it really struck a chord with me:

"It feels like we're becoming serfs."

It's a sentiment that deserves some contemplation. As Americans, we have the philosophy that our freedom is central to who we are as a people. That freedom manifests itself in a lot of different ways. For guys like Eric, it's the ability to make a decent living off the land, living a lifestyle that if we're honest, everyone on this website yearns for to some degree.

It's not a new sentiment either. Back when the landed gentry were controlling the range between the 1860's and 1910's, we had range wars over who could use the range - either the wealthy cattle barons or the scrappy homesteaders & free grazers. The Scotts, Germans, English all owned mega ranches and tried to dominate the landscape and the politics of the era. Those who were able to stay did so by the skin of their teeth and the grit of their determination.

It's not that much different than the miners in Butte who fought against William Clark's Machine, the Railworkers struggling for basic human decency in getting some actual sick leave against the hedge fund owned company that thinks they are automatons, etc.

There's a basic desire for self-determination that all people have, and the people who live on the land in eastern Montana are struggling here to keep that. While I am supportive of AP, I also think we all could do a better job realizing what the objections that folks have really are and the fact that they are legitimate rather than try to udermine those concerns if they don't match our own.

Empathy can be a wonderful, and it can help find solutions where we only think conflict can exist.

I don't like it either, but the arguments need to be consistently applied. It seems difficult to retain private property rights and limit the acquisitions by these large corporate ranches. If I had a choice, I choose the APR over the N-Bar every day.

 

[bullbugle307]

Funny how no one likes people being obscenely wealthy and buying up all the land. But then a good chunk of those people will vote for folks that help make the rich even wealthier without a thought in the world cause they’re all riled up about something like the APR or whatever the flavor of the day is…

 

[Ben Lamb]

Funny how no one likes people being obscenely wealthy and buying up all the land. But then a good chunk of those people will vote for folks that help make the rich even wealthier without a thought in the world cause they’re all riled up about something like the APR or whatever the flavor of the day is…

One side shows up and listens, and then makes policy based on what they hear. The other side doesn't.

Not a big surprise.

 

[bullbugle307]

I hate to think what one of the ranchers I know that is always complaining about money could raise if he just started taking loads of scrap metal and junk cars and trucks off his land

That tracks. My wife’s uncle ranches a couple thousand acres in SE Montana, is very anti APR, and he’s sitting on 90 years of old junk.

I think if I were him I’d be a lot more pissed about a handful of companies controlling and hogging all the profits from the sale of cattle and only giving a fraction of that to the actual producers. But what do I know.

 

[brocksw]

That tracks. My wife’s uncle ranches a couple thousand acres in SE Montana, is very anti APR, and he’s sitting on 90 years of old junk.

I think if I were him I’d be a lot more pissed about a handful of companies controlling and hogging all the profits from the sale of cattle and only giving a fraction of that to the actual producers. But what do I know.

Is he a member of UPOM?

 

[bullbugle307]

Is he a member of UPOM?

Wouldn’t surprise me.

 

[EasternMTnative]

Wonder why the didn’t hold their open house in Malta, or Lewistown?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CmPOpzTvVID/
This event was organized and put on by a Missoula organization that asked AP to come and talk to its members.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Regardless of the rest of this discussion, I think this is an incredibly important statement and I find myself agreeing with Eric to a certain degree.

Talking with another rancher/outfitter outside of Winifred, he said it a bit differently relative to AP and the Billionaire landowner class taking over Montana, and how he said it really struck a chord with me:

"It feels like we're becoming serfs."

It's a sentiment that deserves some contemplation. As Americans, we have the philosophy that our freedom is central to who we are as a people. That freedom manifests itself in a lot of different ways. For guys like Eric, it's the ability to make a decent living off the land, living a lifestyle that if we're honest, everyone on this website yearns for to some degree.

It's not a new sentiment either. Back when the landed gentry were controlling the range between the 1860's and 1910's, we had range wars over who could use the range - either the wealthy cattle barons or the scrappy homesteaders & free grazers. The Scotts, Germans, English all owned mega ranches and tried to dominate the landscape and the politics of the era. Those who were able to stay did so by the skin of their teeth and the grit of their determination.

It's not that much different than the miners in Butte who fought against William Clark's Machine, the Railworkers struggling for basic human decency in getting some actual sick leave against the hedge fund owned company that thinks they are automatons, etc.

There's a basic desire for self-determination that all people have, and the people who live on the land in eastern Montana are struggling here to keep that. While I am supportive of AP, I also think we all could do a better job realizing what the objections that folks have really are and the fact that they are legitimate rather than try to udermine those concerns if they don't match our own.

Empathy can be a wonderful, and it can help find solutions where we only think conflict can exist.

I take issue with your analogy likening the AP to the Copper Baron and to railroad ownership, as well as the implication that AP is "a Billionaire landowner class". One reason that paupers such as I get to camp at the Buffalo Camp for $12 a night and get to access the vast prairie lands is that financial support is comprised to a large extent from donations sent to AP by the "paupers".
So far there has been no explanation of how the AP is adversely impacting the agricultural economy of that area of Montana. To the contrary, AP's agricultural operations, tourism, educational programs, and supportive logistics provide a real boost to the economy, keeping gas stations, retail outlets, restaurants and other services afloat in an area with a decreasing population. Furthermore, AP has partnered with neighboring ranchers who continue to graze cattle on a significant portion of AP lands, maintaining a strong ranching ag industry.

Those naysaying ranchers and others who continually carp about how AP is hurting their income and the ag industry overall have yet to explain HOW!

So, although I too empathize with Eric, as both sets of my grandparents homesteaded the Big Flat of the Turner-Hogeland area, and my grandfather went broke supporting farmers and ranchers during the depression as a general store owner and ag equipment dealer, yet the nexus between AP and those experiencing hard times is a real mystery to me.

 

[Ben Lamb]

It wasn't my analogy, @Straight Arrow. It was someone elses. I thought it was interesting that they viewed AP the same as the Wilks. I've heard that same sentiment across Montana from old time family farmers and ranchers. They're the ones not differentiating.

 

[SAJ-99]

I empathize with the ranchers and would like to see smaller, family ranches survive. I see some positives, like co-ops and some vertical integration formed to get better prices. I wish them the best. However, they are watching their way of life slowly decline, evaporating like a puddle of rain water in the summer sun. I probably would have empathized with the whalers in 1860's, horse buggy manufacturers in the 1920's, and steel mills in the 1980's. The list is endless. Welcome to capitalism. This is what you signed up for. Adapt or die. Don't find someone else to blame because you see change and don't like it.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I empathize with the ranchers and would like to see smaller, family ranches survive. I see some positives, like co-ops and some vertical integration formed to get better prices. I wish them the best. However, they are watching their way of life slowly decline, evaporating like a puddle of rain water in the summer sun. I probably would have empathized with the whalers in 1860's, horse buggy manufacturers in the 1920's, and steel mills in the 1980's. The list is endless. Welcome to capitalism. This is what you signed up for. Adapt or die. Don't find someone else to blame because you see change and don't like it.

I have a soft spot for small business owners getting squeezed out by corporate might, personally. This isn't that much different in many regards.

Walmart versus the mom & pop store, local feed stores versus larger stores in bigger towns, etc. Our economics in this nation are crony capitalism and hurt the average American. I don't think there's much difference between supporting a local rancher over the Wilks than there is in supporting your local sporting goods store over Cabelas.