A timely lament . . .

[gouch]

Our American existential crisis is that we have no place in our hearts and minds for people who do not show the same tribal fealty that we do.

You called that one. Given the direction this thread has taken.

 

[ismith]

In before the lock!

 

[VikingsGuy]

Here's a copy paste of an email from a friend.

Like many citizens, I've wondered and tried hard to understand why Trump has such a remarkable following. (It's obvious why he probably should not!) Then a friend sent me this raccoon story. It makes no difference about your political leanings; this is just a good explanation of WHY... (or it's as good as any I can come up with).



If you really want to know how the majority of people feel? This applies to both Democrats and Republicans; read below, it says it all.



You've been on vacation for two weeks, you come home, and your basement is infested with raccoons. Hundreds of rabid, messy, mean raccoons have overtaken your basement. You want them gone immediately. You call the city, 4 different exterminators, but nobody can handle the job. But there is this one guy and he guarantees you to get rid of them, so you hire him. You don't care if the guy smells, you don't care if the guy swears, you don't care if he's an alcoholic, you don't care how many times he's been married, you don't care if he voted for Obama, you don't care if he has a plumber's crack, you simply want those raccoons gone! You want your problem fixed! He's the guy. He's the best. Period!



Here's why we want Trump, yes, he's a bit of an ass, yes, he's an egomaniac, but we don't care. The country is a mess because politicians suck, the Republicans and Democrats can be two-faced & gutless, and illegals are everywhere. We want it all fixed! We don't care that Trump is crude, we don't care that he insults people, we don't care that he once was friendly with Hillary, we don't care that he has changed positions, we don't care that he's been married 3 times, we don't care that he fights with Megyn Kelly and Rosie O'Donnell, we don't care that he doesn't know the name of some Muslin terrorist, and we don’t care if he sends mean tweets.



This country is weak, bankrupt, our enemies are making fun of us, we are being invaded by illegals, we are becoming a nation of victims where every Tom, Ricardo, and Hasid is a special group with special rights to a point where we don't even recognize the country we were born and raised in; "AND WE JUST WANT IT FIXED" and Trump is the only guy who seems to understand what the people want.



We're sick of politicians, sick of the Democratic Party, Republican Party, and sick of illegals. We just want this thing fixed. Trump may not be a saint, but he doesn't have lobbyist money holding him, he doesn't have political correctness restraining him, all you know is that he has been very successful, a good negotiator, he has built a lot of things, and he's also not a politician, he's not a cowardly politician. And he says he'll fix it.



And, we believe him because he is too much of an egotist to be proven wrong or looked at and called a liar. Also, we don't care if the guy has bad hair. We just want those raccoons gone, out of our house, NOW.



You are welcome to pass this on. I feel this is why thousands of people who haven't voted in 25 years are getting involved.



The raccoons have got to go.

Thank you for sharing. I can appreciate where this perspective comes from. Two thoughts from my perspective - neither directed at you personally.

First, while it is fair to share explanations of one's own sentiments, I find folks who can clearly and fairly represent the perspectives of the other side much more interesting people. We can all hammer our own view, but those who do the work to reflect on the fair context in which others arrive at their perspectives - even those we may be offended by - without attacking the character or motive of the other are far better prepared to have a wide ranging, nuanced and interesting discussion. Any perspective that can be fully summed up with a meme is just not very interesting to me. Saying, "I just can't understand how anyone could believe/support . . . " is either lazy or an admission of willful ignorance (or both).

Second, while I very much appreciate the frustrations of the American working class and some of our struggling areas, the choice of labels, tone and prescribed solutions/sentiments of this shared "raccoon rant" have eerie similarities with Mein Kampf. I am not saying the poster or the drafter are nazis, but I do believe we need to be very care when our answers to life's problems call for complete removal of any group of people, over simplify our challenges in a way that suggest a single group is the root of the problem, suggests a strongman is a better solution than democratic institutions (even when they are struggling as ours are), or equates humans with pests/vermin.

 

[Redmt]

Thank you for sharing. I can appreciate where this perspective comes from. Two thoughts from my perspective - neither directed at you personally.

First, while it is fair to share explanations of one's own sentiments, I find folks who can clearly and fairly represent the perspectives of the other side much more interesting people. We can all hammer our own view, but those who do the work to reflect on the fair context in which others arrive at their perspectives - even those we may be offended by - without attacking the character or motive of the other are far better prepared to have a wide ranging, nuanced and interesting discussion. Any perspective that can be fully summed up with a meme is just not very interesting to me. Saying, "I just can't understand how anyone could believe/support . . . " is either lazy or an admission of willful ignorance (or both).

Second, while I very much appreciate the frustrations of the American working class and some of our struggling areas, the choice of labels, tone and prescribed solutions/sentiments of this shared "raccoon rant" have eerie similarities with Mein Kampf. I am not saying the poster or the drafter are nazis, but I do believe we need to be very care when our answers to life's problems call for complete removal of any group of people, over simplify our challenges in a way that suggest a single group is the root of the problem, suggests a strongman is a better solution than democratic institutions (even when they are struggling as ours are), or equates humans with pests/vermin.

I'm guessing that you read my opening statement. "Forwarded from an email".
I sort of found it entertaining.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I'm guessing that you read my opening statement. "Forwarded from an email".
I sort of found it entertaining.

I did and I tried to be clear I was responding to the email and not to you as poster.

 

[noharleyyet]

I did and I tried to be clear I was responding to the email and not to you as poster.

I thought his c&p a reasonable dissection of the Trump phenomena...

 

[Redmt]

As I have said many times, I don't discuss politics. My views mean nothing to anyone and vice versa. There's hundreds of reasons why or why not to vote for any of the current "wanna be president" group. I thought it a interesting explanation of why anyone would vote for Trump. Leaving politics out of it, Trump is a terrible human, and Biden is well past whatever prime he ever had. JMHO and yours may be different!

 

[Elky Welky]

I'm late to the party, but the timeliness of this article cannot be understated (I was led to it by the accompanying opinion piece in the NYT before here)). It is deeply saddening to me that some of my oldest friends have fled into the mountains and now reside in their own thought bubbles, believing whatever alternative facts their "news" sources and community or religious leaders tell them to believe.

The internet, once a way to explore new ideas, has become a breeding ground for us to find sources that amplify our own. Instead of challenging preconceptions, we seek affirmation of our own beliefs. Or worse, confirmation of conspiracy theories. Add the fact that when confronted with reality, most people are psychologically more likely to double-down, and we have a recipe for disaster. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidr...y-make-you-believe-fake-news/?sh=1c7372fb1233 and https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...02102/doubling-down-why-people-deny-the-facts We can't even laugh together anymore: https://www.vulture.com/article/thats-not-funny-right-wing-comedy-complex-book-excerpt.html

Universities were once the place where we could go to have our preconceived notions challenged, but unfortunately, they have created their own bubbles of ideology and rejection of conservative ideas.

I don't have an answer. I advocate for independent and critical thinking, but that requires work and a willingness to be wrong, and sometimes complete humiliation. Who wants to go through that?

Just this week, I sent a link to two of my friends about the Montana BHA Mule Deer Tag raffle. Deeply conservative, they immediately took issue with the language in the article about trying to give everyone a chance, and attacked it as class warfare and shaming the rich. I made the mistake of pointing out how the Gallatin Co. Republicans had just referred to everyday Montanans as "peasants", and it went downhill from there. Elon Musk, Russia, etc. all suddenly inserted themselves into the conversation. I kid you not.

All I wanted to do was let my friends know that for $20 they could have an equitable chance for a once-in-a-lifetime hunt. I don't know what to make of it all.

 

[44hunter45]

I got into a argument with a family member a while back about a kids football game where one team just obliterated the other and didn't have some sort of mercy rule.

I still don't see any issue with it... they did, I understand their perspective it just doesn't change my mind.

I competed in a sport that just had one division that was like 12 and up. You literally had people coming back from the Olympics and competing with 6th graders. I had to go head to at age 14 with a 20 year old who had just won the silver medal. I basically got demolished until my senior year of high school. I found that to be a really important experience looking back. You learn more from losing than winning… but it was an individual sport not a team sport so someone’s superior abilities didn’t keep me from getting to play.

I can see how that's frustrating as a parent to watch, I'm years from school sports and I'm sure when I get there will be a host of frustrations.

Paging Tonya Harding...

 

[44hunter45]

@VikingsGuy -- Definite trigger alert.

I'm not sure how I missed this thread other than that I've been embroiled in my own hand to hand at the local level with Moms for Liberty.

First - If your whole raison d'etre is banning books, you should not have liberty in your name. Marketing genius. The new right gets really pissed when you use the F word (Facist), but we are talking about banning books here.
Second - Before you agree with them because "keeping pornography out of schools is a good thing", understand that their published standards would even reject the bible.
Being barely literate, they have not read any of the books they want to ban. They get the evil titles from a list published by their national leadership. Books which are designed to teach kids to spot the signs of grooming are labelled "pedophile". I often wonder if they have some reason to want kids to be ignorant to this. Much like the Sage Brush Rebels were a decoy for the extractive industries. Some of you know how close to home this hits for me.

Moving on the OP opinion piece. Spot on for me. None of these topics are academic to me. I've lost a lot of friends. My wife, who is a conservative church going woman, is publicly reviled by her former friends because she is a school librarian. They come to school board meetings in Moms for Liberty tee shirts and shout down other speakers. They bring Bibles to the meetings which I am pretty sure they have not read except the verses that fit their twisted world view. Meanwhile their darling daughters are running around town boy crazy. That ain't the librarian's fault. In our district at least I can verify that the librarian has read the whole of the Scripture.

It's not just on Facebook anymore. If you go to many school board meetings in the US today, you will see this stuff first hand. Being good christian nationalists all, these people believe they are on a mission from God himself. Not my God.

Do old white guys vote only for old white guys? Too often when we walk into the booth, those are the only choices left. The parties are juggernauts that make sure that is the way it is.

I better stop now or I will drive this to a lock. Carry on...

 

[Elky Welky]

@VikingsGuy -- Definite trigger alert.

I'm not sure how I missed this thread other than that I've been embroiled in my own hand to hand at the local level with Moms for Liberty.

First - If your whole raison d'etre is banning books, you should not have liberty in your name. Marketing genius. The new right gets really pissed when you use the F word (Facist), but we are talking about banning books here.
Second - Before you agree with them because "keeping pornography out of schools is a good thing", understand that their published standards would even reject the bible.
Being barely literate, they have not read any of the books they want to ban. They get the evil titles from a list published by their national leadership. Books which are designed to teach kids to spot the signs of grooming are labelled "pedophile". I often wonder if they have some reason to want kids to be ignorant to this. Much like the Sage Brush Rebels were a decoy for the extractive industries. Some of you know how close to home this hits for me.

Moving on the OP opinion piece. Spot on for me. None of these topics are academic to me. I've lost a lot of friends. My wife, who is a conservative church going woman, is publicly reviled by her former friends because she is a school librarian. They come to school board meetings in Moms for Liberty tee shirts and shout down other speakers. They bring Bibles to the meetings which I am pretty sure they have not read except the verses that fit their twisted world view. Meanwhile their darling daughters are running around town boy crazy. That ain't the librarian's fault. In our district at least I can verify that the librarian has read the whole of the Scripture.

It's not just on Facebook anymore. If you go to many school board meetings in the US today, you will see this stuff first hand. Being good christian nationalists all, these people believe they are on a mission from God himself. Not my God.

Do old white guys vote only for old white guys? Too often when we walk into the booth, those are the only choices left. The parties are juggernauts that make sure that is the way it is.

I better stop now or I will drive this to a lock. Carry on...

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