A sad day for hunters and wildlife

[Delw]

Nut.

The manufacturing industry died due to 911, there were things building up before but it took 911 to make it finally happen.

I know machine shops that still havent gotten the people back from what they had before 911, and they are doing better off.(more work then before) but they found they dont need the excess workers.

I know I am alot worse off than 4 years ago. I could probally very easy get back into it just due to the reputation my shop had, its just I dont want the hassles of it again.


It doesnt make any difference if you were a minner ,rancher, logger or otherwise , I still woudlnt put you down.


Delw

 

[cjcj]

Delw/ Danr and others make some very good points...We can all agree that overpopulation is a "Major" problem for the environment[anyone disagree?]... as far as jobs Delw, i was involved in creating "working cells" in the early 90`s..just in time/zero inventory were all the rage... this pushed costs down and profits up...but the downside was severe "job loss"...when the Teaming/Cell/concept started Sperry Flight Systems had over 480 Machinists/Methods enginners/Toolmakers etc.... Honeywell bought out Sperry.. When i left in 94 there were less than 50 people left in the shop. now the last 5 guys are gone at the end of this year. One other factor and this is a significant one! Mexico/ China have "NO" environmental restrictions/controls NO E.P.A.... for disposal of "heavy Metals" such as Copper/Lead etc. they also use "toxic" cleaners such as Trychloretheline without restrictions...The playing field is "unbalanced" these reasons are also why NUT will be out of work.

 

[MattK]

It's easier to blame the unions for the business climate of today.

You can't blame bad decisions from the top that has created the problem to begin with.

Businesses in the United States would rather get the short term gain than the long term gain.

For example: It is less expensive and more productive to clear cut. The short term gains are tremendous, exceeding all expectations a lumber mill has. The problem occurs when the renewable resource is not renewed well enough. Then timber becomes so expensive that the viablility of the company is jeopardized. Short term profits = extinction for the company. The sad part is the CEO's don't really care. They have made their money who cares about the laborer. This is the case in many businesses today.

They look at bottom line net income to make their decisions instead of the long term benefit of their decisions.

Funny thing is it is possible to do both and have a win- win situation. It's just not as easy or quick.

Having to start over does suck!

 

[Nut]

Del, the jobs were leaving Ohio somewhat before 911. I dont actually believe it had much to do with the job losses here. The aerospace work I have done and am doing hasnt changed any for me.
It has alot to do where you are located I guess.

 

[Nut]

Before I forget. I now know I should have chosen to get in the porn business instead.

 

[MattK]

I hear even they have had to down size?

 

[Nut]

 

[Delw]

Matt
most unions today are the biggest joke there is, they are also the main fall of alot of manufacturing jobs over the last few years.


While unions did server there purpose at one time, they are an overkill now.

you got shops where unions say you can only do one job.
ie
forklift driver
machine operator
machine tool setter
machine programmer
supervisor

now a small buisness cant make any profit due to this.
if the machine programmer is not there then that machine sits until the program gets fixed, which in turn you loose major dollars.
if the machine runs out of material and the forkilift isnt there your machine sits and until he shows up.
not to mention people in these positions only know how to do one thing they coudlnt do anything else to save there life.

in a non union shop if the machinsts needs material he goes and gets it, the machine doesnt sit at idle which makes more money.
if the programmer isnt there the machinist will fix it.

not to mention these guys could get jobs anywhere in the world cause they can multitask unlike union workers

Not all unions are like this but the bigger shops are.
you can not do something outside what your hired for.
and we wonder why it costs some major bucks to get something made in America.

Sure the union guys will say they can make more money but if your not qualified to do anything else you dont need to get paid high fees.

a 10 year old kid can run a cnc machine. A properly set-up cnc machine doesnt really requier anything more than putting a bar in the machine and hitting the button to start it.

My daughter was able to program them at the age of 8 or 9(not manually).

Sorry but most unions are a joke and thats what is ruining this country.
Ive worked with many many people that were union people from back east, these people were some of the laziest and dumbiest people I have ever met, they would get thier coffeee in the AM bull shit for 2 hours go over push a button get more coffee bullshit some more then 2 hours before the day was over they would start cleaning there tools, wash up and sit by the time clock for 30 mins bsing until it was time to go, and they wondered why they wouldnt get raises or get layedoff when times got rough. but hey as long as they got thier paycheck they were happy
A place that I worked at I ended up kinda running with in 1.5 2 years. I would watch these guys and count how much time they would actually work. it boiled down to about 2-4 hours in an 8 hour day.

The jobs were extreamly easy in that one guy could run 8 machines by himself and still have time to play on the PC.
There machine didnt run but maybe 1-3 hours per day, we had 2 hour cycle times on some parts . it took 5 mins to check and part and hit the button for the next tool these guys couldnt even do that.
Some of our parts from start to finish would take 15 hours of machine time. 30 mins worth of labor. when I first started there the parts were taking 3-5 days to get finished. I did my first part in about 15 hours. the owners son and his buddy come over and chew my ass cause I was making them look bad. 2 years later I fired the owners friend and a year after that I fired the owners son(even though his daddy took him back 2 days later).
11 years later I quit and april and I built a pretty good business. we just didnt have the money saved to withstand what 911 brought to us.
Over half of the valleys machine shops went to the dumps

Nut all manufacturing jobs took a major hit because of 911, people were just affraid to spend money That was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak. While you might not think so it is a proven fact about manufactuing jobs.

Another thing that hurt/helped was the new technology that was being introduced into machine 2 and three years prior to 911. I could take a part with an old machine that would take me 45 mins to run put it on a new machine with the new type of tooling and run the same part in under 10 mins at a shop rate of 60-200 per hour that made alot of difference.
right after 911 machines were very tough to sell, so the machine manufaturers lowered there price's down to half of the cost that they were before 911. ontop of being new technology and the price being way down shops could then also downsize and still keep up with production. I know shops that replaced over 40 machines with parts that were 20 operations down to 5 machines completely automated from a new bar being put in to the parts being brought to inspection on a conveyor belt. this also cut about 30 jobs.
there was only need for one programmer and one machine operator, he was there only incase something happened.

Delw

 

[Jak]

Ithaca37 .Sounds like you need to build a bridge
Jak

 

[Tom]

http://voteyoursport.com/PDF/GWB-Environmental-July2004.pdf

60 pages of Bush's environmental initiatives!

 

[Nut]

I will continue to disagree with you about 911 being a big factor. No sense in making it a night.

Unions are and were a non-issue in most of the shops closed lately because they were not there to begin with. Steel prices,cost of utilities and the rising cost of health insurance have been a big factor for most closed lately. Ever work at a place with a natural gas bill for 1 month that was $30,000?

As for union workers being lazy. There are a couple but there is lazy employees everywhere. Just look at the ones who post on the internet while they are supposed to be working.

My father worked in a union for 30 years. He was and never was lazy. I was and still am.(non-union for 11 years(I counted it up LOL))


Dang I think we hijacked this thread.

 

[Delw]

Unions are and were a non-issue in most of the shops closed lately because they were not there to begin with. Steel prices,cost of utilities and the rising cost of health insurance have been a big factor for most closed lately. Ever work at a place with a natural gas bill for 1 month that was $30,000?

No but the place I worked for had over a 15k electrical bill when we were only running 4 days a week.

Steel costs have nothing to do with a machine shop going out of business, they quote there jobs with the current steel cost, if they dont they were fools.

steel costs also didnt go up high enough to even hurt the machine shop industry profits to begin with at taht point in time.

Using steel cost utility cost and insurance cost is a lame excuess for a business to go out on. if if your steel and utilites doubled that wouldnt hurt your profit margine enough to make you go under.

As far as health insurance being any factor in shutting down a business I think not, if it was a profitable business to begin with they would have charged the employees, even if they werent a very profitable business they would have charged the employees more.

if your employer told you these things he's full of crap and used it as an excuess to shut his business down.


a few things make a business go under
Inexperianced employees
a shop with a huge scrape rate
owners who just dont care
bad decisions
equipment that wont allow you to be competitive
Owners that just get in it for the money and have no idea how to run machines.( ive seen this many times)(not involved in the business so to speak)
or the economy getting hit real hard( ie 911)

Sorry nut but according to analist 911 killed a good part of the manufacturing jobs wether its something you believe in or not it happened.

Bush didnt take these jobs away.


Delw

 

[Nut]

I will disagree again. Steel prices are a factor in some cases. If you do have repeat customers that place a long term order for monthly amounts. Stocking material ahead can be bad business. They sometimes cancel orders and you eat the material until you get a job that (hopefully) will require. Plus you can not pass every increase along to a customer. They will eventually go somewhere else if you go too high. Try paying the bills with no work and plenty of steel laying around.

Health costs are a factor in who they are able to employ. Good family men who are steady and reliable will go to where the health insurance is the best(if they can find the dang job) Do you think a guy running a shop could get a decent worker if he didnt provide some sort of health insurance? That is added cost and in alot of cases it isnt cheap.

I agree to what you say on certain reasons for closing. But not all.

What's a analist? somebody that talks out his ass? LOL (We have a new word. Only at Moosie's)

 

[BuzzH]

Del,

Thanks for proving my point, you can either have easy access and permits only...or you can have OTC licenses and tougher access, but not both. When you mix easy access and OTC licenses, you dont have elk and deer.

Thats the point.

The problem with easy access and hard to draw permits is that many of the people that draw tags, dont give a shit about hunting that much. But, its easy, so they put in and hope to draw so they get an easy elk/deer/etc. Whether a hunter is able to hunt shouldnt depend on a lottery, but rather by the motivation and drive a person has.

If you severly limit access, you can give everybody the opportunity to hunt every year. All you have to do is strap on your boots and a pair.

Thats exactly why MT has unlimited bighorn sheep areas, every person in the United States can purchase a tag and hunt sheep. But, because access is a real pain in the ass, water is scarce, and the sheep occupy some vast roadless country, everyone at least has the opportunity to hunt sheep. Very few people hunt the unlimited areas, not because they dont want a sheep, but because they arent serious enough and committed enough to even try it. They choose to fight draw odds for a cake-walk of a hunt. The easy access sheep areas in MT have limited permits with odds of 1-100 to 1-200. But if a twelve year old kid draws, an 80 year old grandma, or a fat-assed atver, they're all going to kill a sheep.

BHR, I kill elk, deer, and antelope for a lot of reasons, all of which are too complicated for a simple minded bastard like you to ever grasp.

 

[Delw]

Buzz
I think we are saying the same thing, its just coming out differently


Delw

 

[JoseCuervo]

Originally posted by BuzzH:
BHR, I kill elk, deer, and antelope for a lot of reasons, all of which are too complicated for a simple minded bastard like you to ever grasp.

Originally posted by Delw:
Buzz
I think we are saying the same thing, its just coming out differently

Delw

Del,

Why you callin' BHR a Bastard???

Just out of curiousity, how come nobody has explained why this was a "happy" day for wildlife? I can't see one thing good that Dubya is planning on doing for Wildlife....

 

[Muledeer4me]

"Just out of curiousity, how come nobody has explained why this was a "happy" day for wildlife? I can't see one thing good that Dubya is planning on doing for Wildlife.... "

I hear that is what the animal rights people are saying .

They also hate Bush,because they know he support's hunter's.

There has to be a balance between protecting our wildlife our public lands and hunting,without that balance it does none of us any good.
We also have to have a strong economy and someone that is willing and able to protect us.


Oh wait ----we got that "it's BUSH for four more year's ".

 

[Ten Bears]

Thanks for proving my point, you can either have easy access and permits only...or you can have OTC licenses and tougher access, but not both. When you mix easy access and OTC licenses, you dont have elk and deer.

UHHHH BUZZ, we have OTC deer and elk tags, a growing elk population, and easy access here in the panhandle of idaho. In fact I was told that if I wanted to buy a second elk tag this year I could buy a nonresident tag, OTC, if I needed to. I think when you switched from elk to sheep in you example you stepped on your wanker. Even if they unroaded most of AZ, they still couldn't offer OTC sheep tags there.

 

[Nemont]

I think when you switched from elk to sheep in you example you stepped on your wanker.

Hey Buzz if TB is right and your wanker is long enough for you to step on, you could make alot more money in the adult movie industry.

As for a happy day or a sad day for wildlife: I just wish someone would show me, on the ground, the destruction of the environment that Pres. Bush has caused.

I have asked by environmentalist friends and all I get is well, "he wants to drill on ANWR" well how many rigs are there now? "he wants to log all the roadless area" well how many logging sales have been made in roadless areas in the past 4 years?

I just want proof not theories.

Nemont

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nemont,
Does Dubya not breaching the dams, and even worse, counting Hatchery fish, and/ or rainbow trout ABOVE Dworshak dam on the No. Fork of the Clearwater equate to destruction of the Wild Steelhead runs that he is required by LAW to save? Granted, Dubya didn't build the dams, but given what we know now, how do you fix the mistakes of the past, for the children of the future?

Look at MD's answer, she certainly could not answer about anything postive that Dubya is doing for wildlife....