A Navy Veteran’s perspective on racism

[3855WIN]

Saranac84, thanks for sharing. I get out West for a week or two at a time and don’t really have much of a feel for race relations there. I live in a state with a large Black population. Hunting and fishing are just an everyday part of all of our citizens here. Sad to hear that you’ve been made to feel less than welcome in the outdoors.
We are all fortunate to live in America, but not need to settle for it being less than the best it can be.
Viking, good words.

 

[Nathan]

Growing up in a small town in Wisconsin with very few black people, I was surrounded by people who always talked down about minorities.

It was after joining the military and spending the majority of my time with those minorities I really learned how racist this country really is.

Feel bad because I told a Mexican friend last two weeks ago that racism is getting better but I made the mistake of logging into Facebook the other day. Now I have to delete half my friends and apologize to him for just how wrong I was.

 

[Panda Bear]

Support, or the lack thereof , of racism and sexism can be varied.

Some things are possibly to subtle ( or can be ) for the average person who are not confronted with it on a daily basis, to notice.

Saranac 84, Hunting Wife, MKelkhuntress and Panda Bear, thanks for sharing.

You noticed that . No biggie, it is not unusual. Thanks and best of luck on your trip and hunt

 

[406dn]

Just got back from riding a horse, and this thought occurred to me.

A very stark example of "systemic" racism is all of the various shenanigans around voting. Everything from purging voter rolls, closing down voting polls in areas with significant ethnic minorities, to voter ID laws, to gerrymandering. Not one of those actions is to benefit the minority community. All of them are to decrease the significance of the ethnic vote.

 

[Nick87]

Just got back from riding a horse, and this thought occurred to me.

A very stark example of "systemic" racism is all of the various shenanigans around voting. Everything from purging voter rolls, closing down voting polls in areas with significant ethnic minorities, to voter ID laws, to gerrymandering. Not one of those actions is to benefit the minority community. All of them are to decrease the significance of the ethnic vote.

How so with voter ID?

 

[azelkhntr]

Just got back from riding a horse, and this thought occurred to me.

A very stark example of "systemic" racism is all of the various shenanigans around voting. Everything from purging voter rolls, closing down voting polls in areas with significant ethnic minorities, to voter ID laws, to gerrymandering. Not one of those actions is to benefit the minority community. All of them are to decrease the significance of the ethnic vote.

Or it’s to increase the significance of the minority’s vote. That blade cuts both ways.

 

[Sawtooth]

Feel bad because I told a Mexican friend last two weeks ago that racism is getting better but I made the mistake of logging into Facebook the other day. Now I have to delete half my friends and apologize to him for just how wrong I was.

Instead of deleting half of your friends, I would challenge you to have thoughtful conversations with them about race. Not attacking, but conversations that give them a different perspective that maybe they have not thought about. Friendship is about trust, and I have found that most of the times I have changed my view on a topic came after I had a person I value and trust challenge my prior view on a subject. I feel this is one of the best ways that the white community can effect change with regards to race relations.

 

[VikingsGuy]

How so with voter ID?

The thinking is that administrative burdens - advance registration, formal photo ID, etc disproportionately effect the eldery, the disabled, marginally educated and the poor. I can tell you from personal experience, just getting my frail mom a photo ID so she can go through airport security and cash a check was a big pain in the butt and only happened because I was there to take her to two different appointments, find old papers such as marriage certificate, fill out forms in 4 point font, etc. If she didn't have me, no chance she would have gotten the card after she no longer could have a driver's license.

On an individual level this is non-discriminatory, but over a whole population it has a clear statistical effect. And let's be honest, both parties are playing politics with this. Their computer models know exactly how these various rules effect voting by "their preferred voters".

 

[VikingsGuy]

Or it’s to increase the significance of the minority’s vote. That blade cuts both ways.

In the south, district gerrymandering to increase relative black populations in order to afford black politicians an improved chance of winning some seats was a purposeful (and at least at the time, lawful) approach to increase black political voices under early civil rights laws. But then the clever politicians realized that it also diluted their impact on swing districts and they doubled down on the concept. This is no longer an advantage to the preferences of minorities, it aggregates and isolates their vote in order to reduce the overall congressional impact of their vote. Maybe this is legal, maybe it is not, only SCOTUS can determine that, but it certainly should not be viewed as fair, moral or equitable.

 

[Nick87]

The thinking is that administrative burdens - advance registration, formal photo ID, etc disproportionately effect the eldery, the disabled, marginally educated and the poor. I can tell you from personal experience, just getting my frail mom a photo ID so she can go through airport security and cash a check was a big pain in the butt and only happened because I was there to take her to two different appointments, find old papers such as marriage certificate, fill out forms in 4 point font, etc. If she didn't have me, no chance she would have gotten the card after she no longer could have a driver's license.

On an individual level this is non-discriminatory, but over a whole population it has a clear statistical effect. And let's be honest, both parties are playing politics with this. Their computer models know exactly how these various rules effect voting by "their preferred voters".

I understand that, but I dont understand the alternative with people voting who shouldnt be either.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I understand that, but I dont understand the alternative with people voting who shouldnt be either.

YUP - it needs to be an AND. All eligible voters can vote once AND no voter votes twice or ineligibly. A balance needs to be found between accessibility and vigilance. Very few actually proven instances of voter fraud sufficient to change outcome. Many actually proven instances of voter turn away. Seems like the actual balance is not where many perceive it to be.

 

[Huntkook]

There has been a lot of good points made in this thread. Unfortunately racism and prejudice will always be part of culture. There has never in history been a time without. We can only strive to be better people ourselves and treat people the way we would like to be treated. We have good hate crime laws that need to be enforced fairly and justly. We can mandate all the laws we want, there are still going to be people on both sides of this issue that will stir the pot. Our police should be held accountable for any wrongs, they are not above the law. We need to do better, but that's up to the individual. Communication is definitely going to be the key. A good relationship is dependent not only in listening, but in actions taken. This cannot be a one sided affair. Our declaration says that all men are created equal and that we all have the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not everyone has the same ideals, but that doesn't mean that we should wish or cause harm to those that don't agree with ours. In the bible it says to love one another and that means to be concerned for their well being and not cause them to struggle by our own actions.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

I don’t think all of it has to do with racism towards minority’s. Make stupid choices, win stupid prizes.... I know there needs to be change, but change has to happen on both sides. I’m sure a multi million dollar company say Amazon wants a 5 time repeated prison criminal working for them. That’s not racist, that’s smart business, and it reflects..... period! I know it’s hard to fathom for some that business don’t want to hire criminals, and I’m not saying there all criminals. I know a lot of Latino persons here in Idaho that are good people and work hard! I’ve traveled being in the military and have African American friends etc. but they chose not to be a statistic. I know awesome Kurdish people’s a lot of our translators were great people. Again stop doing stupid stuff! Make good choices even when it’s hard!
Matt

Again, reflect on the numbers. The statistics show the lopsidedness. How did we get there?

Years of suppression having at least two effects.
1. Rejection by most of society (white folk) preventing integration and support of the young.
2. Breaking of the typical family structure preventing support of the young.


You are a product of both genes and your environment. If you were raised in a lopsidedly poor environment, that is going to affect on what you become. And by poor environment, I mean everything from nutrition, social development, economic opportunity. Some can and do overcome, but when you are held back, that path isn't as easy.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

In the south, district gerrymandering to increase relative black populations in order to afford black politicians an improved chance of winning some seats was a purposeful (and at least at the time, lawful) approach to increase black political voices under early civil rights laws. But then the clever politicians realized that it also diluted their impact on swing districts and they doubled down on the concept. This is no longer an advantage to the preferences of minorities, it aggregates and isolates their vote in order to reduce the overall congressional impact of their vote. Maybe this is legal, maybe it is not, only SCOTUS can determine that, but it certainly should not be viewed as fair, moral or equitable.

I actually haven't thought of this. Interesting. Thanks for teaching me something new.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Saranac84, thanks for sharing. I get out West for a week or two at a time and don’t really have much of a feel for race relations there. I live in a state with a large Black population. Hunting and fishing are just an everyday part of all of our citizens here. Sad to hear that you’ve been made to feel less than welcome in the outdoors.
We are all fortunate to live in America, but not need to settle for it being less than the best it can be.
Viking, good words.

I've spent most of my life living in CO, MT, and VT. Most of my friends/coworkers have been white... at this point I need to listen more and talk less when it comes to this topic.

That being said, I feel like your getting a little unfairly treated on this thread.
In my mind there is a difference between racism and racial bias/prejudiced. There is a difference between sexism and gender bias. (Maybe not in common vernacular, but for the purpose of these discussions I define them differently in order to be more specific and nuanced)

@VikingsGuy brought up non traditional marriage rolls. My wife is a doctor, I work... but I also do most of the house keeping; cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, etc etc. We recently moved across country for my wife's career. At some point I may become a stay at home dad... we haven't crossed that bridge yet.

Point being it would be easy for me to point that out and then say "I'm not sexist," and I certainly would get defensive if someone said I was sexist.

But...

I do have gender biases, a lot of the time I don't even notice them. I'll be harder on a male subordinate than a female one, I'll watch my male nephew rough house with a friend and think nothing of it and then feel uncomfortable when my niece jumps in...
Everyone has these biases, one isn't bad for having them. We just need to recognize they exists, talk about them and think about them. Governments are made of people, laws are written by them. Our biases therefore carry over into these systems that we create.

 

[azelkhntr]

The thinking is that administrative burdens - advance registration, formal photo ID, etc disproportionately effect the eldery, the disabled, marginally educated and the poor. I can tell you from personal experience, just getting my frail mom a photo ID so she can go through airport security and cash a check was a big pain in the butt and only happened because I was there to take her to two different appointments, find old papers such as marriage certificate, fill out forms in 4 point font, etc. If she didn't have me, no chance she would have gotten the card after she no longer could have a driver's license.

On an individual level this is non-discriminatory, but over a whole population it has a clear statistical effect. And let's be honest, both parties are playing politics with this. Their computer models know exactly how these various rules effect voting by "their preferred voters".

Not addressing your mom of course VG, but shouldn't we demand a valid voter ID card using E-Verify to prove that you are actually a bona fide US Citizen? I for one didn't stand on the wall defending my Country to have illegals and other ineligibles outright steal my birthright from me. I hold that precious. You want to see a revolution in this country then allow that to occur. We'll put an end to that nonsense lickity split. Arguing that its inconvenient for someone to be registered and justly recognized to vote is laughable and if true so what? That's another "you" problem not societies. I'd like US to go back to the additional standard that you have to be a Real Property owner to actually cast a ballot. If you're not then you have no skin in the game of the future of your Country.

 

[Big Fin]

I'd like US to go back to the additional standard that you have to be a Real Property owner to actually cast a ballot. If you're not then you have no skin in the game of the future of your Country.

Interesting to see how certain factors of qualification for basic rights, such as voting, granted each person under our Constitution and subsequent amendments are often advocated for and framed in the context of what is more beneficial to the circumstances of one group and less beneficial to the circumstances of another group.

My mom has lived in a trailer house her entire adult life, not owning any real property. She got the job, pleasure as she calls it, of raising three kids after divorce from an abusive alcoholic husband. She shouldn't be able to vote? I bet if you had a chart below according to single-parent versus married couple, or single male parent versus single female parent, it would look a lot like the chart below.

Anytime we try to use arbitrary criteria for basic liberties, such as rights granted to all Americans, we are headed down a bad path.

 

[TheJason]

I'd like US to go back to the additional standard that you have to be a Real Property owner to actually cast a ballot. If you're not then you have no skin in the game of the future of your Country.

Oh FFS. Maybe @Big Fin needs to lock this now.

 

[Sawtooth]

@Big Fin, I imagine this thread has been close to getting shut down several times, but I want to thank you for leaving it open. This is a difficult and emotion filled issue to discuss right now in the world, but one that is important. This forum's members have, for the most part, been civil even though many varying views have been expressed. It has been educational and I for one appreciate everyone's willingness to share their life experiences and points of view.

 

[mtmuley]

Oh FFS. Maybe @Big Fin needs to lock this now.

......