A Navy Veteran’s perspective on racism

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Hunting Wife said:
I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me it’s not the aligning part. It’s the intentionally being a d$&k part. Obviously there are many different, sometimes nuanced, opinions or we wouldn’t be here. If people can adequately express their views, I think most here are more than willing to examine them at face value. There have been lots of varied thoughts posted here that didn’t resort to loaded rhetoric and slinging derogatory terms and labels. Once it goes there it’s not a discussion, it’s trolling.

The most meaningful discussions require different perspectives being brought to the table. Otherwise it’s an echo chamber and that’s useless. I think @Big Fin recognizes that and has allowed quite a bit of latitude in this one, which I appreciate (though I kind of feel like maybe it’s run it’s course now after the last couple pages 🤷🏻‍♀️)
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I dont have a problem with people, men or women, disagreeing with me, but like Hunting Wife and Panda Bear and in Hunting Wives words its the "intentionally being a d%%k part" that makes one not want to continue being a part of the discussion. When myself and three other females canoed the entire length of the Yukon River together one summer, we were harassed by males and when we rejected their approaches, both verbally and visually ( exposing themselves ) then we were accused of being lesbians. You read Panda Bears post about what she endured when guiding and on this thread Hunting Wife has been referred to as "baby".

Believe me those two ladies ( Hunting Wife and Panda Bear ) can hold their own, they dont need any help from me and I am not whining either, just letting you know that being a women in the outdoors is not always easy or even welcomed. Now in Hunting Wife and Panda Bears case, add that they are both women of color. When Hunting Wife said she "has dealt with that bs professional for decades"--believe her!
 
Reading//listening/watching the current struggle for equality unfold I am struck by the similarities between our current conversations and those that occurred during the civil rights movement of the 60-70s.

Obviously I wasn't even born, my mom was just a kid.

In ~1963 the BBC did a bunch of profiles of American families in a series called "Inside America", one of the families was my moms. My grandfather was a Presbyterian minister and my grand mother was a professor of anthropology in Little Rock, AR, the episode gave a snap shot into their lives.

In this clip from the episode my grand father, at the head of the table, is discussing civil rights protesting/activities with other local ministers.

Essentially he says he feels that if he got actively involved he would lose members of his congregation and therefore wouldn't be able to have as great an ability to effect change.
He questioned how fast we (1960 America should move).


I imagine, that @Big Fin, the meateater crew, as well as other members of our hunting community have faced similar dilemmas. Do I step up, if I say something will I lose followers/fans/etc, is it better to just try and do an episode with a black person on my show or something like that, what is my roll/responsibility. How do I balance doing the right thing with the backlash.

In 1965, after this episode aired, DCVL, SCLC, and SNCC marched from Selma to Montgomery. The first march on March 7th, aka Bloody Sunday was met egregious acts of violence by police.

1592573314142.png

Galvanized by the police brutality, my grandfather along with clergy and activist rushed across the county to join Dr. King and the other protesters. There was a second march on March 9th, that my grandfather participated in. That evening James Reeb a minister from Boston who had come to join march was murdered by white supremacists.

I talked to my grandfather about this protest, and he said he was scared shit-less.

My grandfather had been a very conservative christian growing up. He enlisted in the Navy in WWII and was on a "missile boat" essentially the small littoral craft that raked the beach at close range right before an amphibious assault. He was at pretty much all of the big landings including Okinawa.

When he entered the Navy he was so straight laced he didn't get off the boat during liberty in Hawaii, preferring to stay on the boat and read the bible. The war greatly influence his perspective, he came home went to seminary, and became (for the time) a very liberal minister in the south (with regard to race and biblical interpretation literal versus metaphoric interpretation of some of the scriptures).

After he went to Selma, he started actively preaching about civil rights and playing a more active roll in the movement.

He lost congregation members, though not as many as he thought he would. In many ways his example made members of his church feel empowered to have discussions and express their views.

He never regretted his decision.

---------------------------------------

Despite being an active participant in the movement, and fighting for civil rights, (and having a wife that worked full time) he totally was a product of his era and had all kinds of biases with regard to race/gender.

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Ruminating on this I wonder if I personally should be doing something more.
 
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Interesting aside on the riots, I support peaceful protests but not violence, etc. etc.

Kwame Ture (Stokely Carmichael) was at Selma and marched with MLK. He was fully indoctrinated and participated in peaceful protest... but after his experiences and watching his friends and mentors get murdered...

“Dr. King's policy was that nonviolence would achieve the gains for black people in the United States. His major assumption was that if you are nonviolent, if you suffer, your opponent will see your suffering and will be moved to change his heart. That's very good. He only made one fallacious assumption: In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none.”

Something to think on.
 
I think of trying to have a productive conversation or meeting at work. Then someone (man, woman or child of any ethnicity or race) "Blurts" something out for their entertainment value. Productivity stops. Repetitive blurting behavior does not get you to far and you will be asked not to attend the meetings or conversations any longer because there is no value added... I think the intent of this thread was to be productive.
 
Gr8bawana said:
That's funny! We tried some "genuine" maple syrup once and we didn't like it. Guess we're just used to sugar water and corn syrup because we didn't find the real stuff flavorful or sweet enough.
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Ok, I can remain civil on most difficult subjects, but this..... I can't be responsible for my actions when statements like this are made! 🤯😅
I live in maple country. Go through 4 or 5 gallons per year. In all seriousness, there are lots of different grades of maple syrup. My guess is you'd prefer the darker grades (like me). Give it another try!
 
mtmuley said:
If you don't align, don't post. Gonna keep my mouth shut. mtmuley
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Am I racist if I:

  • Think it's crazy that black people can use the "N" word freely, but if a white person does is completely abhorrent (I personally think no one should use it)
  • Wonder where the equal outrage is for the high rates of black on black crime/murder (the GF murder was horrible, not disputing that)
  • Am confused that I keep being asked to not see color, only to be reminded over and over again of one's color
  • Think that "All" lives matter

Over the course of this thread I've probably typed a response 3-4 times only to delete it an move on with my day. You hear a lot about wanting "dialogue" or "coming to the table" or "being a part of the conversation", but we've seen that if someone's side of the conversation isn't perfectly worded to the letter they get blasted. The Drew Brees situation is a good example.

I want good things for all people. I don't feel like a racist person at all, but I do feel like I'm being lumped in as one. Rather than engaging, I'll probably just continue to teach my children to be kind to all and hope that we can make a small difference in the world.
 
Randi said:
I dont have a problem with people, men or women, disagreeing with me, but like Hunting Wife and Panda Bear and in Hunting Wives words its the "intentionally being a d%%k part" that makes one not want to continue being a part of the discussion. When myself and three other females canoed the entire length of the Yukon River together one summer, we were harassed by males and when we rejected their approaches, both verbally and visually ( exposing themselves ) then we were accused of being lesbians. You read Panda Bears post about what she endured when guiding and on this thread Hunting Wife has been referred to as "baby".

Believe me those two ladies ( Hunting Wife and Panda Bear ) can hold their own, they dont need any help from me and I am not whining either, just letting you know that being a women in the outdoors is not always easy or even welcomed. Now in Hunting Wife and Panda Bears case, add that they are both women of color. When Hunting Wife said she "has dealt with that bs professional for decades"--believe her!
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This sounds remarkably like an experience my 18 y/o daughter had two nights ago at the local diner she works at. A trucker came in and was hitting on her, she nicely told him he was twice her age. To which his reply was, “what your not ready to pay reparations to the black mamba yet”. She told her manager who did nothing, other than switch waiters. Why? Obviously because of the color of his skin, the manager didn’t want to get labeled racist and a behavior that is absolutely unacceptable was accepted because the color of the mans skin. When he left he said “see ya around” and smiled. She came home in tears. I’m sure she won’t develop any stereotypes from that experience right?

Im not sure we can end racism or sexism or any other Ism so as long as people can enter a conversation with the “well I’m a woman so”, “well I’m a black man so” , or any other “well I’m a .... so”. You can’t unite people by dividing them. Bad behavior is bad behavior. Bad laws are bad laws. If we need to change laws to give everyone a equal opportunity than great let’s change them. Fighting invisible ghosts, I can’t help. Ultimately words are just words, they mean nothing without action. I’ve been listening to this same crap my whole life, all thru high school, college, I was there in 92 when the la riots happened, same conversation as today, nothing has changed, if anything its got worse.

The world revolves around money, not race. The people are just the pawns, every comment on this thread, everyone who posted a black square, everyone who argued against the black square, both sides, one way or the other are doing exactly what they are supposed to do.

if You, of any color, gender, whatever want to go fishing, hunting, whatever in the outdoors, go do it. If someone says some words that are “ist” or “ism”, ignore them. Just words, grow up. if someone takes action against you because of your Whatever, shoot the bastard..
 
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Cheater said:
Am I racist if I:

  • Think it's crazy that black people can use the "N" word freely, but if a white person does is completely abhorrent (I personally think no one should use it)
  • Wonder where the equal outrage is for the high rates of black on black crime/murder (the GF murder was horrible, not disputing that)
  • Am confused that I keep being asked to not see color, only to be reminded over and over again of one's color
  • Think that "All" lives matter

Over the course of this thread I've probably typed a response 3-4 times only to delete it an move on with my day. You hear a lot about wanting "dialogue" or "coming to the table" or "being a part of the conversation", but we've seen that if someone's side of the conversation isn't perfectly worded to the letter they get blasted. The Drew Brees situation is a good example.

I want good things for all people. I don't feel like a racist person at all, but I do feel like I'm being lumped in as one. Rather than engaging, I'll probably just continue to teach my children to be kind to all and hope that we can make a small difference in the world.
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An example of how to participate in the discussion right here. Honest, thoughtful, no patronizing/slurs/lib/con/fascist/socialist/yoga pants/baby. Thank you. It’s not the differing viewpoints that I have an issue with, just the presentation. I apologize if I personally came across otherwise.

I think you raise some valid points, some of which I myself am confused about.
 
Cheater said:
Am I racist if I:

  • Think it's crazy that black people can use the "N" word freely, but if a white person does is completely abhorrent (I personally think no one should use it)
  • Wonder where the equal outrage is for the high rates of black on black crime/murder (the GF murder was horrible, not disputing that)
  • Am confused that I keep being asked to not see color, only to be reminded over and over again of one's color
  • Think that "All" lives matter

Over the course of this thread I've probably typed a response 3-4 times only to delete it an move on with my day. You hear a lot about wanting "dialogue" or "coming to the table" or "being a part of the conversation", but we've seen that if someone's side of the conversation isn't perfectly worded to the letter they get blasted. The Drew Brees situation is a good example.

I want good things for all people. I don't feel like a racist person at all, but I do feel like I'm being lumped in as one. Rather than engaging, I'll probably just continue to teach my children to be kind to all and hope that we can make a small difference in the world.
Click to expand...

I'll take a swing at this.

Friends can call me all kinds of things, that I would not tolerate from a stranger. A friend might call me a MFer is a teasing way. I won't take offense and will banter back. If I got called that in a non humorous way by a stranger,,,,totally different matter. Whites have very seldom used the "N" word in a humorous way when said to or about black people. Why worry about how another ethnic group busts each others' balls??

There is plenty of concern about black on black violence. While I think it is largely misguided,, much of the gun control effort is an effort to reduce black on black crime in urban areas. The GF murder was very different, he was murdered by a representative of the government, that is supposed to protect and serve.

It is not possible to not see color, what must be the goal is to look past it, to look at the individual.

Please, it has been evident forever that white lives matter in this country. The entire black live matters movement is meant to tell everyone that their lives matter also. Sorry, I don't see that as even being that hard to realize.

I can't help you with the last one. I truly hope you are not a racist. Keep teaching your kids to be kind to everyone.
 
Am I racist if I:

  • Think it's crazy that black people can use the "N" word freely, but if a white person does is completely abhorrent (I personally think no one should use it)
Word choice is tough... personally I don't have any problem with profanity, gonna be weird having those discussions with my kids some day... anyway load racial language won't be allowed in my home or tolerated from my kids, spouse, or friends. There is a debate in the black community about the use of the "N" word. I will leave that discussion up to them, there is a lot to unpack with the word. Not a word I or any other white people need in our vocabulary. Point being yes there are black people who don't like it either so I don't think it's racist for you to just not like it being used in general.

The other of your bullets are statements/sentiments that are used white people as excuses for they don't care, shouldn't care or shouldn't engage. I'm not saying that you bringing up the questions is racist, or legitimately having them... but that's why those are politically charged.

All lives matter
-Why are you saying all lives matter. Unpack it for yourself, what are you trying to convey specifically or achieve. Are you saying all lives matter, because you are concerned about your friends and/or family that are LEOS. Are you worried that the currently Mileu puts LEOs at risk? In your mind is the safety or LEOs mutually exclusive from the lives of black Americans? Do you need to pick one over the other? Are you saying it because black people or the discussion about inequity makes you uncomfortable and your trying to give yourself ammo to back away from the problem?

-If you really think All Lives Matter than under that umbrella don't you also agree that Black Lives matter, Latino lives matter, Native American lives matter, LEO lives matter, medical providers life matters. Assuming you aren't racist and actually think they all do, why not acknowledge that Black lives are currently not being shown to matter, that this is a problem, and that as part of your belief that all lives matter that black lives need attention.
 
@Cheater

Whole point about my post about my grandfather is that during the 1960-70s he had to examine his believes and bias. AND those evolved over time.

I have to think about my beliefs and bias... I've literally sat on the couch unpacking BLM and ALM in my mind trying to understand why I feel certain ways about each. The above post isn't meant to be condescending, its literally the kind of thinking that we all need to do.

My grandfather and many in his generation did a ton of introspection at multiple times in their life. They were perfect, the didn't just have the right answer, the talked to their peers/friends/neighbors, consulted scripture, and took their swing doing what they thought was right.
 
Around 2006-7 I had this American kid working for me, probably in the top 5 hardest working People I’ve ever had work for me. Dude was like 6’4” and his hands were giant. Second day on the job he shows up and I’m sweeping the floor of my own shop and he walks in the door and says “what’s up my white negro”. Hahaha.. To this day I laugh every time I think about the conversations I had with that guy. Good kid, raised by his grandparents. Worked for me for about a year than jumped trades and became an electrician. But I think he had a granddad that always told him he could do something not he couldn’t. Taught me everything I know about homemade catfish bait and catching cats on a cane pole at fisherman’s retreat.

And no, I didn’t miss a word in front of American, if you are born here or immigrate here legally, your American. Race-quit talking about it and it will go away..
 
wllm1313 said:
well as other members of our hunting community have faced similar dilemmas. Do I step up, if I say something will I lose followers/fans/etc, is it better to just try and do an episode with a black person on my show or something like that, what is my roll/responsibility. How do I balance doing the right thing with the backlash.
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I think the thing about this is that black people in the outdoors community dont have that choice. They cant sit back and ignore it because it effects them. I was reading about how a fishing guide who is black and he talked about how he is the only black guide in his area and the racial slurs and actions he has encountered. Theres definitely a lot to think about in the outdoors community and it is nice to see people step up. This is a very simplistic write up but studying has been taking up all my time lately. I just really wanted to bring that point up.
 
MTelkHuntress said:
I think the thing about this is that black people in the outdoors community dont have that choice. They cant sit back and ignore it because it effects them. I was reading about how a fishing guide who is black and he talked about how he is the only black guide in his area and the racial slurs and actions he has encountered. Theres definitely a lot to think about in the outdoors community and it is nice to see people step up. This is a very simplistic write up but studying has been taking up all my time lately. I just really wanted to bring that point up.
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Bingo !

The sexual and racist slurs and actions prompted me to discontinue "guiding".
 
Dougfirtree said:
Ok, I can remain civil on most difficult subjects, but this..... I can't be responsible for my actions when statements like this are made! 🤯😅
I live in maple country. Go through 4 or 5 gallons per year. In all seriousness, there are lots of different grades of maple syrup. My guess is you'd prefer the darker grades (like me). Give it another try!
Click to expand...

The flavor of real maple syrup is awesome. The relative thinness of real maple syrup similar to consistency of water is my issue after growing up with the fake yet thick syrup which stays on top of the pancake for more than 2 seconds. Real Maple water would be a more honest description of what I find sold here in the States as real maple syrup.
 
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