A growing problem

[Irrelevant]

I don’t think it is black and white at all and don't mean to come off that way. A portion of Schellenberger’s book(s), and certainly the titles, are meant to be inflammatory – read bait. That said, my take on the tenor of that book was a bit different than what I sense the critiques make it out to be. Part of that is Schellenberger’s blind spots, and part of it is a predictable reaction to his prodding.

If I read those charts correctly, he’s not wrong that the two leading causes of chronic homelessness are mental health issues and substance abuse issues. Critics of his claim would say that unaffordable housing just exacerbates that issue, and I think there is truth to that. Also, categorizing people like that doesn't capture the overlap or I'm sure, tell the whole tale. Both he, and sometimes his critics, seem to be engaged in the highlighting of a lot of correlations. I don’t see specifically though, how both things are incompatible insofar as being contributors. I won’t strongly argue in any way which is the chief driver. It's confusing to me.

There are a large pile of substantive critiques out there of this book. Something I appreciated about his book though, whether his thesis is focused on the wrong thing, is he says what many, including myself, say: “We cannot permit people to behave in certain ways in public and we must prohibit them from doing so (public camping, drug use, free roaming excrement, etc). I agree with this strongly. But as his critics point out, so many just leave it at that. He takes it a step further and proposes a solution. One that, he argues, has components far more achievable than affordable housing, a problem which, as his detractors fairly point out, has a lot of systemic and political inertia aligned against it.

On a side note, I do think that when it comes to homeless folks, our anecdotal experiences and perception of the issue probably does over-focus on the mentally ill and drug addled. They are the ones who cause more friction in our lives – approaching you downtown, trying to break into your buildings, filling your local swimming hole with needles. And so overestimating their signal becomes easy, and we forget about all the others – the youth, parents who can’t afford a home, those fleeing domestic violence, etc.

Ultimately, when I think loftily, this country is sick, and that’s a much larger subject than homelessness, which is only a symptom.

Thanks for the links.

I didn't mean to call you out specifically for thinking it's black and white, I know you don't actually think that way, but without reading SandFransicko and based on a few summaries I read, and commenting on several of the other commenters in this thread, drugs keep being called out as THE problem. I think there is far more evidence that drugs are just the symptom. You can crazy, and unfortunate/unlucky/desperate as the leading causes.

I also have a really hard time with this overarching homelessness label, and the problems, societal costs, and potential solutions that come with it, and how they don't actually fit that group of people worth a shit. If you're a bit crazy and live in Stevens Co WA, you live in a wall tent up some creek with 40 shot up no trespassing signs and random piles of garbage on a couple acres of crappy timber land (literally drove by two of them on Saturday). But if you're that same crazy and live in King Co well you're homeless. Because you can't find somewhere to live, to continue to be crazy, for the level of cheap you can in Stevens Co. Hell maybe you're parents just gave you the land and you're just squatting making ends meet, wearing you foil hat and blaming the Big Brother for all ills, while drinking cheap grain alcohol and living off the fire wood you poach then sell to your parents friends. I know you know these people, all rural people know these people, but those people would the same homeless "trash" everyone laments if they were born somewhere else (ie Seattle, Portland, SanFran, etc). Housing prices is absolutely part of it. Also the idea that homeless congregate where they have the most services makes sense, but that doesn't mean that services should be offered, you're not making new homeless even if you are attracting them.

I get that we shouldn't allow rampant lawbreaking out in the open. But nothing that I've ever heard, actually provides a workable solution that doesn't involve involuntary medicating or generally treating people like animals. I can't support either, no matter how inconvenient it is.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

I've been in Vegas for 2 weeks working and this place is soul crushing. It's flat out disgusting. I travel all thru the city. I have over 500 work sites I have to attend to so I see everything and I mean everything not just what you see on your morning commute thru town. The homelessness is insane and what the city allows is insane and why people live here is insane. Trash is literally EVERYWHERE!!! I wash my hands atleast 10 times a day with a jug of water and soap I keep in the truck. Multiple piles of human shit is at I'd say 75% of my work sites on a daily basis, probably 50% of my sites smell like 10 gallons of piss is in a bucket somewhere nearby, I find multiple drug needles at probably 80% of my sites, 100% of my sites are full of trash and empty bottles of booze bottles and beer cans, I saw a wannabe tranny blowing another homeless man at an abandon carwash at noon in the damn near wide open, i watched a homeless man take a piss behind a light pole 15 yards from 5 or 6 kids waiting for the school bus, I've been spit at by 2 white homeless girls roughly 30 years old because they thought i was taking pictures of them in their cardboard hut when I was just doing my job, I'm asked face to face for money at least 10 times a day, everything in the city is fenced and locked up yet it doesn't matter, probably 90% of my work sites have copper theft and vandalism, probably 25% have a homeless living inside the site. I can go on and on. It's flat out SOUL CRUSHING to see this shit all day long everyday. At first I felt bad for some, but as days went by and the more I saw I felt only sadness for the kids I see on the street. The rest need to get their f$#%ing shit together your an adult not a child!

I don't have the solutions but this city is flat ruined because of it and the in action of any kind, and I'm not talking about trying to find them homes because people are doing that. I've called the police multiple times cause I could not get my job done and they literally don't care and do nothing. Laws were broke and it don't matter cause it's just another homeless drunk or drug addict. I miss home so bad I can't even put it into words because of this filth hole!!! I run to my shower as soon as I get to my camper every night cause I feel disgusting just from being in this environment.

 

[Redmt]

You give a good description of the environment that most people don't see or that they ignore. I'm guessing that the people that deal with it everyday become blind to it after a time. What is it you do that takes you into the areas that are so effected?

 

[Rhcuam]

I've been in Vegas for 2 weeks working and this place is soul crushing. It's flat out disgusting. I travel all thru the city. I have over 500 work sites I have to attend to so I see everything and I mean everything not just what you see on your morning commute thru town. The homelessness is insane and what the city allows is insane and why people live here is insane. Trash is literally EVERYWHERE!!! I wash my hands atleast 10 times a day with a jug of water and soap I keep in the truck. Multiple piles of human shit is at I'd say 75% of my work sites on a daily basis, probably 50% of my sites smell like 10 gallons of piss is in a bucket somewhere nearby, I find multiple drug needles at probably 80% of my sites, 100% of my sites are full of trash and empty bottles of booze bottles and beer cans, I saw a wannabe tranny blowing another homeless man at an abandon carwash at noon in the damn near wide open, i watched a homeless man take a piss behind a light pole 15 yards from 5 or 6 kids waiting for the school bus, I've been spit at by 2 white homeless girls roughly 30 years old because they thought i was taking pictures of them in their cardboard hut when I was just doing my job, I'm asked face to face for money at least 10 times a day, everything in the city is fenced and locked up yet it doesn't matter, probably 90% of my work sites have copper theft and vandalism, probably 25% have a homeless living inside the site. I can go on and on. It's flat out SOUL CRUSHING to see this shit all day long everyday. At first I felt bad for some, but as days went by and the more I saw I felt only sadness for the kids I see on the street. The rest need to get their f$#%ing shit together your an adult not a child!

I don't have the solutions but this city is flat ruined because of it and the in action of any kind, and I'm not talking about trying to find them homes because people are doing that. I've called the police multiple times cause I could not get my job done and they literally don't care and do nothing. Laws were broke and it don't matter cause it's just another homeless drunk or drug addict. I miss home so bad I can't even put it into words because of this filth hole!!! I run to my shower as soon as I get to my camper every night cause I feel disgusting just from being in this environment.

No way man. They just need a nice Thanksgiving meal served them by total strangers, a pat on the back, maybe a hug, and they will be good as new….. probably next bill gates out there right now.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

You give a good description of the environment that most people don't see or that they ignore. I'm guessing that the people that deal with it everyday become blind to it after a time. What is it you do that takes you into the areas that are so effected?

I'm an independent contractor that services cell phone towers.

 

[Redmt]

I'm an independent contractor that services cell phone towers.

Cool! Verizon needs you to come fix the Copernicus tower. We have a Verizon war going on now.
You don't happen to be a HAM?

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Cool! Verizon needs you to come fix the Copernicus tower. We have a Verizon war going on now.
You don't happen to be a HAM?

Nope.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I didn't mean to call you out specifically for thinking it's black and white, I know you don't actually think that way, but without reading SandFransicko and based on a few summaries I read, and commenting on several of the other commenters in this thread, drugs keep being called out as THE problem. I think there is far more evidence that drugs are just the symptom. You can crazy, and unfortunate/unlucky/desperate as the leading causes.

I also have a really hard time with this overarching homelessness label, and the problems, societal costs, and potential solutions that come with it, and how they don't actually fit that group of people worth a shit. If you're a bit crazy and live in Stevens Co WA, you live in a wall tent up some creek with 40 shot up no trespassing signs and random piles of garbage on a couple acres of crappy timber land (literally drove by two of them on Saturday). But if you're that same crazy and live in King Co well you're homeless. Because you can't find somewhere to live, to continue to be crazy, for the level of cheap you can in Stevens Co. Hell maybe you're parents just gave you the land and you're just squatting making ends meet, wearing you foil hat and blaming the Big Brother for all ills, while drinking cheap grain alcohol and living off the fire wood you poach then sell to your parents friends. I know you know these people, all rural people know these people, but those people would the same homeless "trash" everyone laments if they were born somewhere else (ie Seattle, Portland, SanFran, etc). Housing prices is absolutely part of it. Also the idea that homeless congregate where they have the most services makes sense, but that doesn't mean that services should be offered, you're not making new homeless even if you are attracting them.

I get that we shouldn't allow rampant lawbreaking out in the open. But nothing that I've ever heard, actually provides a workable solution that doesn't involve involuntary medicating or generally treating people like animals. I can't support either, no matter how inconvenient it is.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

but without reading SandFransicko

I get that we shouldn't allow rampant lawbreaking out in the open. But nothing that I've ever heard, actually provides a workable solution that doesn't involve involuntary medicating or generally treating people like animals. I can't support either, no matter how inconvenient it is.

Do yourself a favor and read it. Its time well spent.

When you're done with that read Apocalypse Never.

 

[Irrelevant]

Do yourself a favor and read it. Its time well spent.

When you're done with that read Apocalypse Never.

I'll add it to the list for sure. But it's going to be a couple deep, I have to learn how to kill things again first (https://www.amazon.com/dp/198134643...olid=3KBW8W2BBP004&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)

 

[Deleted member 18333]

I'll add it to the list for sure. But it's going to be a couple deep, I have to learn how to kill things again first (https://www.amazon.com/dp/198134643...olid=3KBW8W2BBP004&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)

Wonder what percentage of homelessness is due to overwhelming target panic anxiety?

 

[Flylo]

Hey what bullet do you guys recommend for my thanksgiving day Norris road elk hunt? Asking for a friend

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Hey what bullet do you guys recommend for my thanksgiving day Norris road elk hunt? Asking for a friend

Core-lokt

 

[Buckbrush]

There is going to come a day when the local Town and Country, Albertsons, or other grocer is only open on Tuesdays from 9-5 due to housing for a would-be labor force being either entirely occupied by retirees and remote workers, rented as a short term vacation rental, or owned as a 2nd (3rd, 4th, whatever) home and occupied a few weeks per year. There will still be some boomer out front on a Wednesday having forgotten Tuesday was the day shaking his fist at the sky proclaiming 'no one wants to work any more!'.

"You Will Own Nothing and Be Happy," Klaus Schwab

This will be the last transfer of wealth as the middle class by design loses their life savings. Americans will be deemed to be domestic terrorists...

www.americaoutloud.com

This is planned. They want to control everything in your life. The people your seeing are the first to fall. Yes they got their by bad choice's. Just remember that you are only 2 steps away from the same. Electric vehicle's are a scam the food shortages are man made. How many food processing plants burned down this year? San Francisco giving out free basic income to the gay community. This is planned so don't be so hard to judge. Their buying up single family homes to drive you out of affordable housing. Same with farm land. They will replace worker's with AI. You're not needed. Not saying it's going to happen but that's what they're vision is.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

"You Will Own Nothing and Be Happy," Klaus Schwab

This will be the last transfer of wealth as the middle class by design loses their life savings. Americans will be deemed to be domestic terrorists...

www.americaoutloud.com

This is planned. They want to control everything in your life. The people your seeing are the first to fall. Yes they got their by bad choice's. Just remember that you are only 2 steps away from the same. Electric vehicle's are a scam the food shortages are man made. How many food processing plants burned down this year? San Francisco giving out free basic income to the gay community. This is planned so don't be so hard to judge. Their buying up single family homes to drive you out of affordable housing. Same with farm land. They will replace worker's with AI. You're not needed. Not saying it's going to happen but that's what they're vision is.

 

[BirdManMike]

"You Will Own Nothing and Be Happy," Klaus Schwab

This will be the last transfer of wealth as the middle class by design loses their life savings. Americans will be deemed to be domestic terrorists...

www.americaoutloud.com

This is planned. They want to control everything in your life. The people your seeing are the first to fall. Yes they got their by bad choice's. Just remember that you are only 2 steps away from the same. Electric vehicle's are a scam the food shortages are man made. How many food processing plants burned down this year? San Francisco giving out free basic income to the gay community. This is planned so don't be so hard to judge. Their buying up single family homes to drive you out of affordable housing. Same with farm land. They will replace worker's with AI. You're not needed. Not saying it's going to happen but that's what they're vision is.

Youre wrong.

 

[Buckbrush]

Youre wrong.

Okay so how why am I wrong? Not trying to argue but what are is your rebuttal too the info that I posted?

 

[Buckbrush]

Please don't give me because I have deep personal feelings about this subject.

 

[DouglasR]

I’m just an entitled millennial, but let’s think of it as a chicken or the egg situation for a second. You’re a blue collar worker (or even entry level white collar) in Bozeman making $50k a year. Not bad right? Except the median home price this year was $950k. So you’re forever doomed to rent. Except then you get informed your rental sold to someone who’s going to use it as an AirBnb, and suddenly you’re homeless. Hard to keep your job when you’re living out of a car, especially in the frigid north. Life sucks either way, but at least you don’t notice as much when you’re high.

Long story short, sure some of these people lack personal responsibility, but at some point people’s bootstraps are only so strong.

It wouldn’t be easy, but they could move to Illinois and work at a fertilizer plant.

 

[DouglasR]

"You Will Own Nothing and Be Happy," Klaus Schwab

This will be the last transfer of wealth as the middle class by design loses their life savings. Americans will be deemed to be domestic terrorists...

www.americaoutloud.com

This is planned. They want to control everything in your life. The people your seeing are the first to fall. Yes they got their by bad choice's. Just remember that you are only 2 steps away from the same. Electric vehicle's are a scam the food shortages are man made. How many food processing plants burned down this year? San Francisco giving out free basic income to the gay community. This is planned so don't be so hard to judge. Their buying up single family homes to drive you out of affordable housing. Same with farm land. They will replace worker's with AI. You're not needed. Not saying it's going to happen but that's what they're vision is.

If I didn’t know their/they’re/there/your/you’re any better than that, I’d be a nervous wreck too!