A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides

[VikingsGuy]

The Ottoman Empire 1911

Armenian genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Soviet Union 1929

List of massacres in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

China 1935

China's Bloody Century

Germany 1939

The Holocaust - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cambodia 1956

Cambodian genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cuba after Castro

Political career of Fidel Castro - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My sense of history is skewed by....history. Your belief is a hope. You hope the concept of democracy is what saves us. Just in case your hope doesn't pan out and politicians try some evil stuff like politicians have always done throughout the history of the world, I'd like for US citizens to be armed.

The correlation you point out is that dictatorships kill people - to this, there can be no doubt. Now show me the evidence that unemployed used car salesmen with off-the-shelf ARs prevent dictatorships?

 

[LWC55]

1. No one is talking about 100% de-arming all Americans.
2. You can be armed with more than just weapons. You can support democracy when and where it erodes. You can support free elections, peaceful transitions of power, and voter rights. You can arm yourself with knowledge on how democracy works and empower others to become active members in it's functions.
3. To lose faith in democracy is to lose faith in America, all that it was built on, and all that it stands for. I will always have hope, and faith, in democracy.

Because they can't 100% de-arm all Americans. They have to do it incrementally. It is unsettling the number of sportsman on this thread that are ok with eroding 2A to some degree.. Governments aren't known for taking more power than they should.

I too have faith in a representative democracy...the way our founders set it up. Especially with a strong 1A and 2A. Without those there is not really freedom. It is whatever the powers that be will allow.
We've all seen the attacks on 1A and 2A in recent weeks, months, and years. I'm totally against allowing weakening either one

 

[LWC55]

You want to assign causality. I.e, China took peoples guns and now it’s communist, or the Ottomans collected guns from Armenians so they could kill 1.5m of them, or Nazi’s collected guns so they could kill the Jews. You are taking extremely comlplicated situations and assigning blame to one thing to support your position. At best it is intellectually dishonest. And it has been pointed out that no one on this thread is supporting a broad confiscation of guns. Add discussion on the area of agreement and stop drifting. You are starting to sound paranoid.

Why did they take the guns? Did taking them provide the people more power or the government?

 

[LWC55]

I hear this rationale all the time, but just don't buy it. Can you provide real-world examples of this? Did gun-toting soccer moms keep schools open during covid? Did armed Japanese Americans prevent their own internment? Did Blacks in the south during the 50s prevent jim crow laws? Hell, during the time of our founders, the fed govt. crushed the Whisky Rebellion.

Even in more formal civil wars/insurrections - those that have had a real effect were largely funded and supplied by outside governments, not self-supplied or self-funded to any meaningful extent.

Do you think a government is more or less likely to act in tyrannical fashion if most of its citizens are armed?

 

[VikingsGuy]

Do you think a government is more or less likely to act in tyrannical fashion if most of its citizens are armed?

I am looking for evidence, not speculation. Not all that seems logical at first blush turns out to be true. There is no doubt the earth feels flat - but eventually, we learned it was a globe. I have spent a lot of time in government buildings and never once seen any evidence that policy or legislation was affected even 0.0000001% by the thought that some citizens have guns.

 

[LWC55]

The correlation you point out is that dictatorships kill people - to this, there can be no doubt. Now show me the evidence that unemployed used car salesmen with off-the-shelf ARs prevent dictatorships?

Has a dictatorship ever occurred under a population with anything equivalent to 2A?

 

[LWC55]

I am looking for evidence, not speculation. Not all that seems logical at first blush turns out to be true. There is no doubt the earth feels flat - but eventually, we learned it was a globe. I have spent a lot of time in government buildings and never once seen any evidence that policy or legislation was affected even 0.0000001% by the thought that some citizens have guns.

I provided evidence of governments disarming citizens and becoming more tyrannical. Can you provide evidence to the contrary? Are there times when governments taking away gun rights gave their citizens more power?

 

[VikingsGuy]

Has a dictatorship ever occurred under a population with anything equivalent to 2A?

Has a dictatorship ever occurred under a population that liked Tang - the orange drink of the future?

I feel fairly safe saying that with hindsight, our 225 yrs of constitutional democracy has not needed an armed peacetime citizenry to protect itself from the installation of a dictatorship. Rather, a resilient democracy has carried the day.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I provided evidence of governments disarming citizens and becoming more tyrannical. Can you provide evidence to the contrary? Are there times when governments taking away gun rights gave their citizens more power?

First of all your statement is factually incorrect. You provided evidence of dictatorship first where there is later correlation, but no demonstrated causation, of disarmament and genocide. In fact, an armed citizenry may have sped up the genocide given the armed majority could have been even more violent against the hated minority in your examples.

As for evidence of nations that restrict guns and maintain freedom, how about Norway, Sweden, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Japan, Australia ,etc etc

 

[LWC55]

Has a dictatorship ever occurred under a population that like Tang - the orange drink of the future?

I feel fairly safe saying that with hindsight, our 225 yrs of constitutional democracy has not needed an armed peacetime citizenry to protect itself from the installation of a dictatorship. Rather, a resilient democracy has carried the day.

I feel fairly safe in saying that over the last few hundred years democracy has been attempted many times. The only one I know that lasted during that time has 2A.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Has a dictatorship ever occurred under a population with anything equivalent to 2A?

Yemen, currently yes to 2A... I mean I'd call it a dictatorship YMMV


Lots of cultures have "right to own weapons" beliefs to one degree or another... Sikhs for example, I believe there is a right to bear arms for Muslims implicit in Sharia law.

I feel fairly safe in saying that over the last few hundred years democracy has been attempted many times. The only one I know that lasted during that time has 2A.

 

[Nick87]

Along with ear gauge rings, face tattoo needles, scissors used to cut one's own bangs at home, etc.

I think you may have just solved most of our problems in a nutshell.

 

[LWC55]

First of all your statement is factually incorrect. You provided evidence of dictatorship first where there is later correlation, but no demonstrated causation, of disarmament and genocide. In fact, an armed citizenry may have sped up the genocide given the armed majority could have been even more violent against the hated minority in your examples.

As for evidence of nations that restrict guns and maintain freedom, how about Norway, Sweden, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Japan, Australia ,etc etc

How can you argue that taking away gun rights does not take away power from the citizens? You can argue the degree but it is dishonest to say that if widget A is armed and then widget B is forcefully unarmed that widget B still has the same power against widget A that they had before.

 

[BackofBeyond]

The Ottoman Empire 1911

Armenian genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Soviet Union 1929

List of massacres in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

China 1935

China's Bloody Century

Germany 1939

The Holocaust - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cambodia 1956

Cambodian genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cuba after Castro

Political career of Fidel Castro - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My sense of history is skewed by....history. Your belief is a hope. You hope the concept of democracy is what saves us. Just in case your hope doesn't pan out and politicians try some evil stuff like politicians have always done throughout the history of the world, I'd like for US citizens to be armed.

Correlation doesn’t prove causality.

 

[BackofBeyond]

And every meatless burger...

I’m oddly ok with that now, especially after my wife’s exploration of soy bacon.

 

[BackofBeyond]

And all the different forms of rowdy powder.

Mtn Ops!

 

[LWC55]

Yemen, currently yes to 2A... I mean I'd call it a dictatorship YMMV


Lots of cultures have "right to own weapons" beliefs to one degree or another... Sikhs for example, I believe there is a right to bear arms for Muslims implicit in Sharia law.




View attachment 224408

Let us not be like Yemen. My point was we have outlasted the countless attempted democracies in the last few hundred years that did not have 2A. I stand by it.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I feel fairly safe in saying that over the last few hundred years democracy has been attempted many times. The only one I know that lasted during that time has 2A.

There are dozens of unique features of our particular flavor of constitutional govt. To choose 1 of them, and without example of its use or contribution, give it full credit is completely non-sensical.

Think of the times folks in our nation folks thought their democracy and freedom were at stake from internal threats - where are the stories where armed citizens successfuly stood their ground?

The Whisky Rebellion was crushed.
Fries's Rebeliion was crushed.
The State of Muskogee was crushed.
The German Coast Uprising of 1811 was crushed.
Black Slavery was maintained for 70 years.
Nat Turner rebellion was crushed.
Dorr Rebellion was crushed.
The Anti-Rent war in NY was crushed.
The Taso Revolt was crushed.
Harper's Ferry failed
NYC draft riots were crushed.
Liberty Place revolt failed
Election of 1874 riot failed
Greenwood Insurrection of 1882 crumbled
Willmington Insurrection of 1898 prevailed in reversing democratic elections and suppressing non-white voters - not really a win for democracy
Green Corn Rebellion failed
Japanese Americans were interred
60 years of segregation was enforced in the south without armed insurrection by the oppressed
Southerners who thought Brown v. BoE was an outrage - did they use the 2A?
Folks who think Roe is murder - 2A use?
Folks who think Citizen United destroyed democracy - 2A use?
Folks who feared the Patriot Act?
Bundy standoff failed
Ruby Ridge standoff failed
Posse Comitatus standoff failed
No meaningful amount of armed citizens took action on "stop the steal"


Where is all the history of the people of the US, armed under the 2A, preserving liberty?

Again, I am pro-2A, I am very proud of the US and do believe in some ways it is exceptional, but the narrative of the 2A keeping us free is a modern invention with little to no evidence. But it is a great marketing story that has taken deep root.

 

[Doublecluck]

1. No one is talking about 100% de-arming all Americans.
2. You can be armed with more than just weapons. You can support democracy when and where it erodes. You can support free elections, peaceful transitions of power, and voter rights. You can arm yourself with knowledge on how democracy works and empower others to become active members in it's functions.
3. To lose faith in democracy is to lose faith in America, all that it was built on, and all that it stands for. I will always have hope, and faith, in democracy.

52% of the US population believes democracy has failed. Maybe the solution when it comes will be peaceful, maybe not. History is full of failed governments, ours is still in its infancy. I don’t want to be the cause of its failure, nor a casualty of the result.

I learned a lot from the comments here, I thought white claw was the sterilization effort.

 

[VikingsGuy]

ours is still in its infancy.

It is the longest-standing government on the planet, so doesn't really feel like infancy - may be more like early-onset senility in its 60s