A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides

[TheJason]

And to be fair, Giuliani totally cleaned up NYC.

PolitiFact - How much credit does Giuliani deserve for fighting crime?

SUMMARY: Rudy Giuliani touts his crime-fighting record from his days as mayor of New York, but many experts don't think

www.politifact.com

New York was no anomaly, but was part of a trend that saw crime fall sharply nationwide in the 1990s, particularly in big cities. The city with the best record for reducing violent crime during this period? San Francisco.

Aside from questions it raised about constitutionality, a 1999 study by the New York Attorney General's Office found that "Stop and Frisk" was unevenly applied — minorities were stopped disproportionately — and led to relatively few arrests. Often, people were detained but never charged. Although Giuliani's policies appear to have passed the ultimate test — crime did go down — researchers seeking empirical evidence have come up short.

 

[DouglasR]

You know where you won’t see a gun crime committed in Illinois?
A dispensary.
I’ve never been to one, but I’ve been told they pretty much always have 2-5 security guards with blowers ready to bust on scene.

 

[longbow51]

When has a populace ever been disarmed?

The Ottoman Empire 1911
Soviet Union 1929
China 1935
Germany 1939
Cambodia 1956
Cuba after Castro

And I'm leery of the "it can't happen here" argument.
Just in the past year, we have seen Canada seize assets of peaceful protestors, and now contemplating a gun ban.

Ministry of Truth leapt from the pages of fiction to Washington D.C.

Kids arrested for surfing, moms arrested for going to the park with their kids.

Very near to "show your papers, citizen" over Covid vax.

And an outright meltdown that a centrist might control a single social media platform.

And now we have "lung-sucking" 9mm rounds that need to be banned. Guess I'll send back my Hammer bullets; I have very very accurate Sigs and Berettas.

So, if these things don't make you want to cling to your First, Second, and Fourth Amendment rights, we are just on different pages.

I already offered Reason's pretty sophisticated Swiss cheese model where we could have addressed everything from poverty/fatherless/drugs/internet all the way up to final line of defense, BillTs willingly armed teachers. And VG laid out a pretty broad OP.

But now, it's if you don't want an AR ban you approve of dead kids.

Anyway, tagging out. Adios my friends. Go fishing

 

[MTLabrador]

Some of you guys really need to take up fishing, turkey hunting, or bear hunting.

 

[Nick87]

Going, back 14 years to when Obama first got elected, gun sales of every type have been robust to say the least. If guns drove safety, the crime rate would not have started rising the last few years.

I wonder what the ratio is between new gun owners and that crime rate? Also how many of those crimes that were committed by people who were legal to have the gun in the first place.

 

[LWC55]

Who said disarming?

And...
Overreach in my statement was really meant as self determined "over" regulation. Regulations increase as populations increase. It has to to ensure equal freedoms if one is to avoid some form of the tragedy of the commons (if freedom and equality are things of value). If your population is increasing your regulation will increase regardless of the number of scary black guns in your safe. So that's really a moot point.

"hollywood has people convinced they're a badass stuck at a desk job and ARs are the only effective ways to stop government overreach... but I digress."

My bad. Not sure how I took your statement to mean anything other than "over" regulation by the government.

Using the countries that recently (in roughly the last century) disarmed their citizens from longbow51's post above. Were the citizens of these countries over regulated...ie murdered by their government at a higher rate prior to or after being disarmed?

The Ottoman Empire 1911
Soviet Union 1929
China 1935
Germany 1939
Cambodia 1956
Cuba after Castro

 

[SAJ-99]

Using the countries that recently (in roughly the last century) disarmed their citizens from longbow51's post above. Were the citizens of these countries over regulated...ie murdered by their government at a higher rate prior to or after being disarmed?

The Ottoman Empire 1911
Soviet Union 1929
China 1935
Germany 1939
Cambodia 1956
Cuba after Castro

How many were democracies? Did any out an add in the paper and say “turn in your guns so we can commit genocide”? The argument has no bearing on tighter gun control, but we should be able to work with the lessons to develop a better way to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people, at least legally. When the US government comes to confiscate guns we can talk.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I suggest free abortions for all the ladies that don’t want to be parents.. nip the problem in the bud.

 

[Irrelevant]

I suggest free abortions for all the ladies that don’t want to be parents.. nip the problem in the bud.

Involuntary sterilization

 

[LWC55]

How many were democracies? Did any out an add in the paper and say “turn in your guns so we can commit genocide”? The argument has no bearing on tighter gun control, but we should be able to work with the lessons to develop a better way to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people, at least legally. When the US government comes to confiscate guns we can talk.

I think we all agree that crazy people should not have guns. If someone is crazy and is a threat to society (with a gun or other type of killing device) they should be in a home for crazy people.

The most popular lefty politician the last 2 presidential primaries is a socialist. Democracies don't last forever. But they would last a hell of a lot longer if citizens have a way to keep tyrannical governments from becoming so tyrannical. I believe that an armed populace is a disincentive for govt to get too tyrannical. Can guns match a nuke or sidewinder missile? No, but armed citizens can make it very uncomfortable for those that wish to do us or our society harm.

You already know this but I guess it is your way of saying you don't care.....but when the govt comes for guns it will be too late for talking. Hopefully enough folks do care that the govt never takes that step.

 

[BackofBeyond]

Involuntary sterilization

Just pump the meds into the air supply system at Walmart. Problem solved.

 

[Irrelevant]

Just pump the meds into the air supply system at Walmart. Problem solved.

Spike the Nascar punch?

 

[SAJ-99]

I think we all agree that crazy people should not have guns. If someone is crazy and is a threat to society (with a gun or other type of killing device) they should be in a home for crazy people.

The most popular lefty politician the last 2 presidential primaries is a socialist. Democracies don't last forever. But they would last a hell of a lot longer if citizens have a way to keep tyrannical governments from becoming so tyrannical. I believe that an armed populace is a disincentive for govt to get too tyrannical. Can guns match a nuke or sidewinder missile? No, but armed citizens can make it very uncomfortable for those that wish to do us or our society harm.

You already know this but I guess it is your way of saying you don't care.....but when the govt comes for guns it will be too late for talking. Hopefully enough folks do care that the govt never takes that step.

I’m happy to see we can agree on something. Maybe something to build on. However, your sense of history is skewed by your beliefs. You think owning guns saves you, I think believing it and supporting the concept of democracy is what saves us. See my post on the conundrum. Tongue in cheek but not a joke. Read the room- not HT, but the US populace.

 

[LousyResident]

Spike the Nascar punch?

Along with ear gauge rings, face tattoo needles, scissors used to cut one's own bangs at home, etc.

 

[Irrelevant]

Along with ear gauge rings, face tattoo needles, scissors used to cut one's own bangs at home, etc.

And every meatless burger...

 

[DouglasR]

And every meatless burger...

And all the different forms of rowdy powder.

 

[LWC55]

I’m happy to see we can agree on something. Maybe something to build on. However, your sense of history is skewed by your beliefs. You think owning guns saves you, I think believing it and supporting the concept of democracy is what saves us. See my post on the conundrum. Tongue in cheek but not a joke. Read the room- not HT, but the US populace.

The Ottoman Empire 1911

Armenian genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Soviet Union 1929

List of massacres in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

China 1935

China's Bloody Century

Germany 1939

The Holocaust - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cambodia 1956

Cambodian genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cuba after Castro

Political career of Fidel Castro - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My sense of history is skewed by....history. Your belief is a hope. You hope the concept of democracy is what saves us. Just in case your hope doesn't pan out and politicians try some evil stuff like politicians have always done throughout the history of the world, I'd like for US citizens to be armed.

 

[Irrelevant]

The Ottoman Empire 1911

Armenian genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Soviet Union 1929

List of massacres in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

China 1935

China's Bloody Century

Germany 1939

The Holocaust - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cambodia 1956

Cambodian genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cuba after Castro

Political career of Fidel Castro - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My sense of history is skewed by....history. Your belief is a hope. You hope the concept of democracy is what saves us. Just in case your hope doesn't pan out and politicians try some evil stuff like politicians have always done throughout the history of the world, I'd like for US citizens to be armed.

1. No one is talking about 100% de-arming all Americans.
2. You can be armed with more than just weapons. You can support democracy when and where it erodes. You can support free elections, peaceful transitions of power, and voter rights. You can arm yourself with knowledge on how democracy works and empower others to become active members in it's functions.
3. To lose faith in democracy is to lose faith in America, all that it was built on, and all that it stands for. I will always have hope, and faith, in democracy.

 

[SAJ-99]

My sense of history is skewed by....history.

You want to assign causality. I.e, China took peoples guns and now it’s communist, or the Ottomans collected guns from Armenians so they could kill 1.5m of them, or Nazi’s collected guns so they could kill the Jews. You are taking extremely comlplicated situations and assigning blame to one thing to support your position. At best it is intellectually dishonest. And it has been pointed out that no one on this thread is supporting a broad confiscation of guns. Add discussion on the area of agreement and stop drifting. You are starting to sound paranoid.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I believe that an armed populace is a disincentive for govt to get too tyrannical.

I hear this rationale all the time, but just don't buy it. Can you provide real-world examples of this? Did gun-toting soccer moms keep schools open during covid? Did armed Japanese Americans prevent their own internment? Did Blacks in the south during the 50s prevent jim crow laws? Hell, during the time of our founders, the fed govt. crushed the Whisky Rebellion.

Even in more formal civil wars/insurrections - those that have had a real effect were largely funded and supplied by outside governments, not self-supplied or self-funded to any meaningful extent.