44hunter45
Well-known member
Two points:
1) He has a canoe.
2) He authored the greatest HT thread of all time, "There's a marmot in my truck."
A brawl brewing in spokane?
- Thread starter Hilljackoutlaw
- Start date
1) He has a canoe.
2) He authored the greatest HT thread of all time, "There's a marmot in my truck."
Points taken.
Mustangs Rule
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Wow,,,Yes, you are missing some huge things.
Let me offer you a window that most non-hunters or anti-hunters see hunters through.
Please forget about donating your meat to food pantries, unless you have an archery tag. Otherwise, they will no longer accept it due to real concerns about hundreds of tiny lead fragments. Maybe 5% to 7% of hunters have switched to non-lead bullets
Your average nature lover/hiker non-hunter reads magazines about the outdoors and in them they will regularly see photos of birds of prey and eagles poisoned by lead in carcasses that has been absolutely positively identified as coming from lead bullets. Most hunters scoff at this.
The condor is still in dire trouble. Yes, the non-lead bullet law has been passed there but so many non-compliant hunters are the problem.
The same problem happens in Japan with Stellars sea eagles dying from hunters using lead bullets even after the law has been passed banning lead. Hunters there scoff at this.
Next, Manmade climate change. Most nature lovers are up to their ears in reading about one threatened species after another from Climate change. Far too many hunters scoff at this.
Next killing Derbies, competitions to see how many animals can be killed. All over the anti-hunter websites there are pictures of piles of dead animals. One photo showed many dead coyotes lined up in the snow to spell “PETA”. Kill fest contests are a regular part predator and varmint hunting
RMEF has changed, so many biologists have left. The Murie foundation named after Olaus Murie considered the father of elk conservation has cut all ties with the RMEF, which now has a former Rodeo and NASCAR promoter in charge. The RMEF now denies such basic foundations of field biology such as “Tropic Cascade. In which predators are valued as part of an intact biological system.
Look at Utah, a state often lauded by hunters as an example of great elk success story. Utah,,,during a record drought had 13,000 elk over a healthy max limit. That equals 40,000 under the number of deer they should have, CWD is on the way getting closer by the day and “Pando” the largest living organism on earth, a cloned aspen grove, is dying from over grazing. I have read in one hunt one blog after another how hunters could care less about this
Non hunter nature lovers care about all life, plants and animals and most hunters care only about filling their tag,
Add in the images of hunters dressed in camo and hunting with assault rifles or long-range sniper rifles and riding quads and wanting them allowed in more places and you really wonder why you aren’t getting new recruits?
The time is coming rapidly when hunter dollars are shrinking and the new money will come from two sources, one the nature lovers who don’t hunt, and competing with them for our resources will be private hunting organizations.
They won’t be able to buy public land,,,just lease it forever.
DouglasR
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Nothing.
bayoublaster7527
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Wow, I don’t wanna be a hunter anymore……what a bunch of complete dirtbags.
Understand you are trying to illustrate a different viewpoint but I wouldn’t say most or the majority of non-hunters view hunters that negatively. Now anti-hunters is a different demographic, they are determined to end all hunting everywhere and this viewpoint very much supports their agenda.
D
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D
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I think folks took issue with the word “citizen” in his explanation of the NA model feeling that the term excludes indeginous peoples and denotes a “settler” centric world view.
Mahoney is also a big T. Roosevelt proponent and they take onus with Roosevlet’s racist and jingoist policies and beliefs.
So IMHO nothing that Mahoney did specifically, but rather took issue with promoting a white patriarchal perspective on public lands and game management.
Please save the @s and reply’s I’m communicating the issue not passing judgements or arguing anything. Deep breaths keyboard warriors.
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Mustangs Rule
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I spent nearly ten years delivering annual pro-hunting presentations to a very politically active branch of a major conservation organization.
I doubt any of you have done something like that. Mostly you just stay in your informational bubble and give each other the same feedback.
The national vice president who as a member of this local group was a biology teacher. I was a biology teacher. We had that in common and became friends with time. She admitted an anti-hunting lean in her views but still she was open to new science-based information.
Also, for that same period I was taking weeklong field biology classes at both the Teton Science School and the Yellowstone Institute, with many who did not hunt
Lastly, I had several monthly nature/hunting theme columns I wrote for papers on the west coast, east coast and in Wyoming. They were very well received, and I got lots of positive feedback from my readers, even non hunters. Doing all this for so long offered me a huge long-term window into how those that do not hunt feel.
The biggest problem with our modern hunting is that it cannot leave its original model which began a few thousand years ago with herding cultures around the middle east.
The prototype looks like this. Amass wealth in the form of large herds of grazing animals, kill off all wild competition for forage, kill off all predators that could eat your livestock and then just overgraze the land and find a new place to go, often taking over land from other groups.
We had some real advantages here in the New World and that with science education and a new mindset allowed some new thinking but still this old herding society mindset sets the rules with most F and G agencie$.
Oddly it was WW1 which opened up the saving of our wildlife.
Returning WW1 vets, who saw how Europe was stripped of most all wildlife were the ones who began the movement which after a few decades resulted in the Pittman Robertson Federal Aid to Wildlife Act which drew funding from hunters and gun owners,,,,to save BOTH GAME AND NON-GAME animals alike.
I wrote about that several times and doing the research found out that without support from some women's garden clubs through the Midwest,,,just hounding politicians to vote for it, Pittman Robertson never would have passed.
Hunters have lost their way from the original “save all wildlife” stance and have hence lost support.
This hunting season will be my 57th. I am a lifelong hunter, but I will only hunt when, where, and how it constitutes “Good biology”
An example is my never killing the best game animals. Having most hunters, craving taking home the best buck or bull elk is bad biology, since it constantly pulls out the best genes from a wild population thus making the genetics of a herd weaker,,,the exact opposite of what predators do, killing the young, the very old, the sick and the weak.
What I have found over and over with non-hunters and antihunters, is that it is science ignorant and ignoble hunting practices that sets them off.
D
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Mustangs Rule
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Here is an example of an old but new model of "Good Biology" in hunters.
The International Order of Saint Hubertus is a worldwide organization and knightly order of hunters and wildlife conservationists under Grand Master Istvan von Habsburg-Lothringen that promotes traditional hunting ethics and practices.[1] The Order was founded in 1695 by Count Franz Anton von Sporck, who brought together noble hunters from Austria, Bohemia, and other countries throughout the Habsburg Empire.[citation needed][2] The Order was named in honor of Saint Hubertus, the patron saint of hunters and fishermen.[2] The Order's motto is Deum Diligite Animalia Diligentes, "Honoring God by Honoring His Creatures".[1]
Lastly. i never met a non-hunter even an anti-hunter that did not admire The Izaak Walton League models of hunting ethics
The International Order of Saint Hubertus is a worldwide organization and knightly order of hunters and wildlife conservationists under Grand Master Istvan von Habsburg-Lothringen that promotes traditional hunting ethics and practices.[1] The Order was founded in 1695 by Count Franz Anton von Sporck, who brought together noble hunters from Austria, Bohemia, and other countries throughout the Habsburg Empire.[citation needed][2] The Order was named in honor of Saint Hubertus, the patron saint of hunters and fishermen.[2] The Order's motto is Deum Diligite Animalia Diligentes, "Honoring God by Honoring His Creatures".[1]
Mission[edit]
According to the organization's American website, the purpose of the Order is to "promote sportsmanlike conduct in hunting and fishing, foster good fellowship among sportsmen from all over the world", "teach and preserve sound traditional hunting and fishing customs", "encourage wildlife conservation and to help protect endangered species from extinction", "promote the concept of hunting and fishing as an intangible cultural heritage of humanity", "endeavor to ensure that the economic benefits derived from sports hunting and fishing support the regions where these activities are carried out", and "strive to enhance respect for responsible hunters and fishermen".[1]Lastly. i never met a non-hunter even an anti-hunter that did not admire The Izaak Walton League models of hunting ethics
woods89
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This stuff must be a little depressing for Shane Mahoney. You spend massive amounts of time and effort trying to help people value the outdoors, and what do you get in return? Accused of patriarchy, and sort of by extension racism, just because you have a sense of the history involved.
I find that utterly distasteful.
D
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Roosevelt has a complex legacy.
Conservatives flagrantly overlook and minimize the fact that he was a staunch progressive, in todays political landscape he would probably be most aligned with Bernie Sanders/ AOC.
Liberals tend to focus more on his hawkish foreign policy. At the time this country viewed native peoples as foreign adversaries.
I have a lot of respect for Mahoney, he has an amazing ability to distill history.
Hopefully he can take those criticisms in stride and thoughtfully adjust his remarks.
woods89
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Agreed, but what historical figure isn't complex?
I'd say idolizing someone like Roosevelt is equally misguided, but there is not a lot to be gained by this hypercritical criticism of the past.
Some of us will likely be viewed the same way someday, despite our best efforts.
bayoublaster7527
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Ok I guess I’ll just defer to your superior expertise and return to my informational bubble. I do have one question though. If a hunter were to intentionally seek out older age class animals, would that be good biology or bad biology?
Hammsolo
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Hmmm… so I’ve really tried to read all this thread and take multiple viewpoints into consideration. FYI, I am drinking delicious IPA’s and getting pissed at the Zags performance so far. So a couple of thoughts…
1. How do we get people to understand they’re a part of an ecosystem?
2. How do we bring hunters together, build a common vision for what a hunter is, and share that with the public?
3. What do I do? I live in Spokane, and want to make a difference. I am a member of RMEF since the early 90’s and a newer member of the Back Country Hunters Association, as well as other organizations. What group is going to tackle this challenge?
My buddies Dad, Pappa Fitz, would say, “Quit your bitchin’ Hamm, what you gonna do?”
1. How do we get people to understand they’re a part of an ecosystem?
2. How do we bring hunters together, build a common vision for what a hunter is, and share that with the public?
3. What do I do? I live in Spokane, and want to make a difference. I am a member of RMEF since the early 90’s and a newer member of the Back Country Hunters Association, as well as other organizations. What group is going to tackle this challenge?
My buddies Dad, Pappa Fitz, would say, “Quit your bitchin’ Hamm, what you gonna do?”
Gerald Martin
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I’ve been reading through this and thinking about it the past couple days. A few thoughts to add to the discussion.
Hunters like to see themselves as the saviors of wildlife, but it was unregulated hunting that nearly extirpated wildlife across much of North America.
Public Trust resources are owned by everyone and in a democracy, everyone gets to voice their opinions about what they think proper wildlife management looks like regardless of whether hunters agree with their assessment.
The best credibility we can have as hunters to help set management policy is to demonstrate we are responsible stewards of the resource. That requires hunters to understand and advocate that we only take from the surplus of abundant wildlife and do not contribute to the demise of struggling populations.
Voluntary self limiting regulations are going to be more important to keep the support of the non-hunting public than are loud and proud demonstrations of demanding we get to “keep our rights” as hunters.
Hunters like to see themselves as the saviors of wildlife, but it was unregulated hunting that nearly extirpated wildlife across much of North America.
Public Trust resources are owned by everyone and in a democracy, everyone gets to voice their opinions about what they think proper wildlife management looks like regardless of whether hunters agree with their assessment.
The best credibility we can have as hunters to help set management policy is to demonstrate we are responsible stewards of the resource. That requires hunters to understand and advocate that we only take from the surplus of abundant wildlife and do not contribute to the demise of struggling populations.
Voluntary self limiting regulations are going to be more important to keep the support of the non-hunting public than are loud and proud demonstrations of demanding we get to “keep our rights” as hunters.
Hunting Wife
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You read this while drinking? It probably made more sense to you than it did to me then.
1. Some of that starts with environmental education, getting people connected with nature, and helping them gain a real, unsanitized understanding of how the natural world works. They need to learn that strong wildlife populations depend on the weak, old, or excess dying, and habitat can’t support infinite populations. People (hunters, generalizing again) get upset about creating too many new outdoor users, but people without any connection to the natural world beyond cute Tik Tok videos of named animals are not likely to support hunting. We have to make some hard choices I think.
2. In the current social climate we live in, I don’t know if a common vision is possible honestly. We can’t even objectively step back and take a hard look at ourselves, obviously. Some serious mental shifts would need to happen to get us past being a bunch of tribes fighting amongst ourselves.
3. Engage in honest, good faith efforts when participating in the public process in your state, and engage with your local bios. Prod the groups you belong to to engage as well. Go listen at meetings and conferences. Educate yourself. Be willing to listen to and critically evaluate differing opinions (yes, even from the crazies). Get over the idea that listening to someone is the same as supporting their idea. You have to listen before you can evaluate. THINK. Then advocate for what the best available science, budgets, and social realities support. Refusing to engage with certain groups at all just reinforces their messaging and stereotyping. That is counter productive and hurts us in the long run.
Mustangs Rule
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How old ? Past breeding age, past passing on great genes! Good biology. Still of healthy breeding age bad biology.
Don't target the best. Two years I happily shot a fork horn that was in the presence two exceptional older bucks.
Say what you want about me, but i practice what i preach
I want to vomit
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