7mm-08 Obsolete for a Mountain Rifle Cartridge?

[JLS]

Deadly serious…..

 

[ImBillT]

Okay, I’ll play this silly game one last time.



Finn Aggard was a hunting and shooting writer I thought brought such a vast amount of experience to every article he wrote. He was a very well respected hunting guide in Kenya until hunting was banned and he was taken in by his fellow hunters in Texas where he guided, hunted and wrote till he died some years back.



As an old man he was a top performer at the active shooting event named the Keny-Athalon held at the NRA center in New Mexico. This event began being designed for hunters.



He never won first place as he refused to use tricked out rifles that had left being true hunting rifles, and were instead target/sniper rifles.



Eventually the sniper crowd took over,,,and what I thought was the finest active shooting event in America went off course and fizzled out. Too bad,



Finn was an eminently practical man. I recall one of his articles in which he discussed the.308 Winchester cartridge.





He wrote about one of the most successful “one shot kill” hunters who went to Africa to hunt plains game. The only rifle he took for this once in a lifetime hunt was the .308.



In the course of this writing Finn compared the .308 to the 7mm-08. As good as he thought the 7mm-06 to be,,,he then said that nothing could beat the .308 for “All around game field Utility”



I never forgot that term. Finn was never lured in by things like the last drop of velocity, or the last fraction of BC. Again,he was eminently a very practical man, and the .308, and all the calibers that share that case are very practical performers.



I write all this thinking about your comment about how “serious” a 100’/second is.



Actually if you take the maximum velocity for the 140 grain bullet in the ,284 which is 3012’/second and compare it to the max for a .7mm-08 with that bullet which is 2953’/sec you get just under a 2% increase in velocity, 59’/sec. which is trivial. This is gained by a 19% increase in powder going from 47.5 grains to 56.5 grains with the .284.



I would, take the 7mm-08 and run.



What we have here in these comparisons bears similarity to 14 year old boys looking at “Playboy”

and arguing which pictured model is “better”, based on measurements which are trivial and reflect little real life experience.



There now , I am done with this silliness

A) you did not correct for the barrel length difference in the load data that you used. The 284Win would be at 3060fps(115fps more than the 7-08)from the same length barrel as the 7-08Rem in the data.

B) At no point in any of my posts in this have I made the claim that the 7-08Rem wouldn’t kill animals, won’t work, shouldn’t be used etc. The claim that I made was that you were completely and totally wrong to believe that a 7-08Rem is more powerful than a 7x57 or 284Win. Nothing could be further from the truth. Regardless of all the things a 7-08Rem will do, it will not shoot a bullet faster than the two cartridges you said it would if everything else is the same. Why is it so hard for you to admit “a 7-08Rem is not more powerful than a 7x57 and it is not even as powerful as a 284Win”? You didn’t start this off by saying that you could live without the extra 115fps(corrected for differing barrel lengths in the data you used) that a 284Win would give you over a 7mm-08Rem. You started this off by saying that a 7mm-08Rem would BEAT a 284Win by 100fps.

C) Cartridge efficiency is almost entirely a result of case capacity to bore area ratio. Smaller cases in larger bores are always more efficient in terms of grains of powder/fps. Take a peek at some 7BR and 7TCU data. There’s nothing special about the 308Win case.

D) What does my beef with your misinformation laden post about a 7-08Rem having the magical ability to outperform a 7x57 and 284Win have to do with what a gun writer thought of a 308Win?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Finn Aggard was a hunting and shooting writer I thought brought such a vast amount of experience to every article he wrote. He was a very well respected hunting guide in Kenya until hunting was banned and he was taken in by his fellow hunters in Texas where he guided, hunted and wrote till he died some years back.

 

[Panda Bear]

I have been looking for a 5.75 lb or under 7mm-08 rifle to replace my Howa Alpine Mountain Rifle which I had to give to my wife… The problem is I am just not finding a lot of manufacturers, Kimber, Weatherby etc. making a mountain weight rifle in the caliber. The lowest I can find is seven lbs, which is inconceivable. Am I overlooking manufacturers? Is it a conspiracy with the 6.5 guys? What is going on?

And yes, I could find a Ruger American or a Savage, but I want a three position safety a hinged floorplate, and 22” or longer barrel.

Willm1313 : Excellent point, IMHO,

and picking up from your lead,



Mr McAlister.

I wanted to go all the way back to your first post, as the thread seems to have deteriorated somewhat.

Your post hit home with me, as a few years ago I was also looking for a rifle that I would only use when we left for a specific hunt. Goat or Sheep. That would be its only purpose as those two hunts are hunts we actually "plan". I had also wanted something lighter and a 7mm-08

After flopping around like a chicken with my head cut of for a bit, April suggested I save my pennies and get exactly what I wanted, via a custom built. since I neither have the time or ability to do so myself, she suggested I get my three position safety from Dakota or Gentry--or find a Win 70 in good condition and then ask a fellow here in Canada ( Martini) to make me what I wanted.

However; she also suggested that instead of the 7mm-08, I consider the 275 H & H ( not to be confused with the Rigby ). I did and have zero regrets. It is an old caliber ( 1912 ) but using todays bullets and powders, it actually surpasses the 7mm-08 and the 7mm Rem and competes with the 7mm Weatherby, using the 160 gr bullet. Woodleigh makes bullets for the old girl, as she takes a .287, not .284. but only 160 and 175 which may be heavier than you want to use.

Regardless of the caliber selected, dont be afraid to have the exact gun you want, made. Dont "make do", as it seems you know exactly what you want . You want a lightweight 7mm08, then settle for nothing less, even if it takes longer to obtain .

 

[ImBillT]

That’s a good question.

“a 7-08 is more powerful than a 7x57 and 284Win”

“no it’s not”

“did you know they killed tigers with 7x57’s and moose with 6.5x55’s? How dare you say a 7-08 isn’t more powerful than a 7x57 and 284Win!”

“it’s not”

“Finn Aggard really like the 308Win. He couldn’t win a match, but a 7-08 is the magic version of a 308”

That’s where we are.

 

[MarvB]

.....and now I’m officially caught up...thanks for the Cliffs Notes @ImBillT

Btw, did you know that THERE REALLY WAS A CLIFF??

Born in Rising City, Nebraska in 1919, Clifton Hillegass was a voracious reader who reportedly read five books a week up until his death at age 83. ... In 1958, he borrowed $4000 from the local bank and began channeling his love of literature into a series of guide books he named Cliff's Notes!

Cliff also favored the 7mm-08 for its superior power and performance to that of the 7x57 and 284Win.
But I digress...

 

[Deleted member 28227]

.....and now I’m officially caught up...thanks for the Cliffs Notes @ImBillT

Btw, did you know that THERE REALLY WAS A CLIFF??

Born in Rising City, Nebraska in 1919, Clifton Hillegass was a voracious reader who reportedly read five books a week up until his death at age 83. ... In 1958, he borrowed $4000 from the local bank and began channeling his love of literature into a series of guide books he named Cliff's Notes!

Cliff also favored the 7mm-08 for its superior power and performance to that of the 7x57 and 284Win.
But I digress...

Fair enough... now where did Tactical Chad enter the picture.

 

[MTLabrador]

Fair enough... now where did Tactical Chad enter the picture.

You never see Tactical Chad coming, he pulled a sneaky on you.

 

[G. McAlister]

I fully regret asking this question, it has had more tangents than a high school math book, but I did get some good advice. To all those who offered advice and alternative rifles to look at, thank you, to those that didn’t, “at no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”

 

[Mustangs Rule]

A) you did not correct for the barrel length difference in the load data that you used. The 284Win would be at 3060fps(115fps more than the 7-08)from the same length barrel as the 7-08Rem in the data.

B) At no point in any of my posts in this have I made the claim that the 7-08Rem wouldn’t kill animals, won’t work, shouldn’t be used etc. The claim that I made was that you were completely and totally wrong to believe that a 7-08Rem is more powerful than a 7x57 or 284Win. Nothing could be further from the truth. Regardless of all the things a 7-08Rem will do, it will not shoot a bullet faster than the two cartridges you said it would if everything else is the same. Why is it so hard for you to admit “a 7-08Rem is not more powerful than a 7x57 and it is not even as powerful as a 284Win”? You didn’t start this off by saying that you could live without the extra 115fps(corrected for differing barrel lengths in the data you used) that a 284Win would give you over a 7mm-08Rem. You started this off by saying that a 7mm-08Rem would BEAT a 284Win by 100fps.

C) Cartridge efficiency is almost entirely a result of case capacity to bore area ratio. Smaller cases in larger bores are always more efficient in terms of grains of powder/fps. Take a peek at some 7BR and 7TCU data. There’s nothing special about the 308Win case.

D) What does my beef with your misinformation laden post about a 7-08Rem having the magical ability to outperform a 7x57 and 284Win have to do with what a gun writer thought of a 308Win?

I thought about correcting for barrel length but left it for your delight.

Realize I all I did was quote data from a variety or reloading manuals.

 

[MarvB]

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I fully regret asking this question, it has had more tangents than a high school math book, but I did get some good advice. To all those who offered advice and alternative rifles to look at, thank you, to those that didn’t, “at no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”

Just PM Panda Bear in the future lol

 

[ThunderNocked]

I have been looking for a 5.75 lb or under 7mm-08 rifle to replace my Howa Alpine Mountain Rifle which I had to give to my wife… The problem is I am just not finding a lot of manufacturers, Kimber, Weatherby etc. making a mountain weight rifle in the caliber. The lowest I can find is seven lbs, which is inconceivable. Am I overlooking manufacturers? Is it a conspiracy with the 6.5 guys? What is going on?

And yes, I could find a Ruger American or a Savage, but I want a three position safety a hinged floorplate, and 22” or longer barrel.

I guess my question is why is 7 pounds inconceivable?
My new Mountain Rifle is a Semi Custom Kimber Montana 280 Ackley Improved - with scope 7 pounds - with bipod and sling 7 pounds 11 or 13 ounces.

and I apologise - I didn't read through all 4 pages of the ... conversation.

 

[BigSky!]

Btw, did you know that THERE REALLY WAS A CLIFF??

Born in Rising City, Nebraska in 1919, Clifton Hillegass was a voracious reader who reportedly read five books a week up until his death at age 83. ... In 1958, he borrowed $4000 from the local bank and began channeling his love of literature into a series of guide books he named Cliff's Notes!

Cliff also favored the 7mm-08 for its superior power and performance to that of the 7x57 and 284Win.
But I digress...

Maybe; but, (are you ready for it?) that's not the whole story.

 

[MarvB]

??? Interest peaked ....

 

[AlpineAssassin907]

I've got a .308 Win prototype coming my way that is lighter than the old Alpine Mountain Rifle. What they end up being as a final offering, I'm not sure. I suspect they'll come in a 7mm-08 or 6.5PRC, or both.

I do have a sub-7# 7mm-08 that I'll be using this fall. We are working on trimming that one down even further. I really like it so far.

As Howas, they'll come with a floor plate and 3-position safety. Unfortunately, I think these are all 2022 offerings.

Good luck in your search.

Randy, is this the new Howa “Super Lite” model ? I have been searching for an Alpine mtn rifle for a long time now after they have been discontinued. With zero luck. I am excited to hopefully try out this new “Super Lite” model. I seen it weighs in under 5 pounds with no scope?? Incredible. I am in search of a new backpack rifle. Seems to be the perfect fit for me. I will be watching for it to get it ordered when it’s available

 

[Big Fin]

@AlpineAssassin907 - The "Super Lite" currently comes in a .308 Win and a 6.5 CM, both with 20" barrels. They hit the scales at 4#-7oz. I have my .308 I got late last summer, but didn't get it set up in time for last hunting season. It is one of my projects for this summer, pending ammo getting here.

The 7mm-08 I referred to above was used last year and comes in at 6#-2oz with a 22" barrel. I really liked it and will use it some this year. I took a pronghorn, a moose, and a mountain goat with it.

I am getting a 7mm-08 that is setup similar to the "Super Lite" to try this season, but it is not yet available commercially. We are trying to see if we want a 20" or 22" barrel. I've also asked for the 6.5PRC, but that will weigh a bit more with the 24" barrel. Not sure where the PRC will come in, as far as weight.

Thanks for reminder. I need to follow up and see where they are at with my two crazy requests.

 

[std7mag]

@Big Fin - A 7mm-08 with 22" barrel weighing 6lb 2oz has my interest!

 

[220yotekiller]

Kimber hunter with FX-II 6x36

View attachment 187003

Is that rifle hard to shoot ell being that light? Thats crazy!

 

[MarvB]

Is that rifle hard to shoot ell being that light? Thats crazy!

Can’t speak for jryoung but I can say that mine def does require concentration.

Weatherby Backcountry Ti w/ Leupold VX-3HD 4.5x14x40