4 year olds with guns

[The Hedgehog]

Sorry for a long rant, but this is one that I am passionate about:

As a teacher who spends lots of time with upper elementary & middle school students, as a Montana Hunter Education Instructor, and a parent of a twelve year old and seventeen year old, my opinion is that this is a BAD idea.

Sitting in a ground blind, or box stand and hunting over a game feeder is vastly different from what much of the hunting in Montana is involved with; shots where the shooter is seated and at a bench rest simply do not occur very often here. Physically, most children less than 12 years old have serious problems with recoil and accuracy, much less physically being able to safely carry a heavy rifle over broken ground. This isnt a Texas sendaro hunt, nor is it Pennsylvania or Wisconsin sitting in a tree stand for a couple hours on opening day. Just because they allow youth hunts in other states is no reason that Montana needs to allow them too. There are no studies I am aware of that show that lowering the minimum age to hunt has a positive influence on increasing hunter recruitment.

At sight in days for youth hunts, as well at field course days for Hunter Education, its easy to see the affect of recoil on youth, and many are not hunting with large caliber rifles. I've heard numerous stories from past students about making a poor shot on an animal that resulted in the child never again wanting to hunt again. Children in their early teens grow rapidly in both strength and intellect, both qualities needed for a safe experience. Otherwise, why not issue drivers licenses to 12 year olds, and put them out on the highway at 75mph?

I have students who live and breathe for the chance to get outdoors and hunt and fish. They talk about it with their peer group at school, and they wait their 12th birthday (or now sometimes their 11th birthday) to get out and hunt. Many of them still leave school at younger ages to go on hunting trips with family, and they share pictures of their experience when they return to school (seems like every 10 year old has a cell phone / camera anymore). They are still able to particiapte whether they carry a rifle or not.

One important factor with lowering hunting ages has not been mentioned here: Hunter Education. Currently, children must be 11 years old in order to attend class in Montana. This results in a fairly even age distribution in most hunter education classes, where most students are 11, 12 & 13 years old. Younger kids may attend class, but cannot be certified.

There is a HUGE difference in teaching hunter education concepts to a twelve year old compared to a seven or eight year old. There is a reason that students are grouped by age into school classes. Its tough to teach to a large age difference, especially with the amount of material required for certification, and the reluctance of parents to commit to attending any more than the bare minimum of classes.

Most of the instructors in my region are completely opposed to this legislation, and have STRONGLY opposed to it in the past (this is at least the third session that this bill has been brought forth).

Many of the instructors here believe so strongly in maintaining the present age that they will quit the Hunter Education program if this law is passed. Hunter Education is required by law in Montana, and the program is 100% taught by volunteers, who can barely keep up with the demand for classes now. If they leave, your license dollars will now be spent hiring teachers to teach the course instead of managing fish and wildlife resources.

No one is opposed to children spending time afield with family & friends. I think all of us here, especially the fathers and mothers, can think of no finer way to spend an hour with our children. Some of the most memorable times of my life were with my kids when they hunted and harvested game, or hunted and came home empty handed. But let them wait until they are 11 or 12 years old before you hand them a high powered rifle as the hike the hills with you.

Respectfully now steeping off my soapbox,

A Montana Hunter and Bowhunter Education Instructor

I agree 100%! This will never pass.

What kind of jackass is going to draft a bill that eliminates the need for a hunter's saftey certificate, both firearm and archery, for kids to hunt, so long as somebody's within shouting distance? What a joke.

If you're 5 year old can pass the test.. then my hat's off to you - but it ain't gonna happen. So let's have parents putting infants in for cherished limited quota permits? As if that wouldn't get abused.. What next?!

Something about a long-awaited right of passage makes the first experience really something. I shot my first big game animal at 15, and had been handling firearms unsupervised for longer than I should admit but don't feel like I missed out. My son took a 2-day course in Helena last spring, smoked the test with like a 98%. The instructors were TOP-SHELF. My boy's been riding the bench for many years and was pretty excited to notch his first tag. He was 11. Probably could have passed the test and taken animals for the last 2-3 years, but the way it worked out couldn't have been better.

I don't think this subject is worth 5 pages.. it will never happen.

As that bill is drafted, it's a complete farce.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I don't think it will change a kids interest in the sport one bit. As Randy11 said, when you're that age, you are thrilled as can be to just go along.

Teaching kids to wait is good for them. Instant gratification is not what kids need more of.

Exactly!

 

[Ben Lamb]

I don't think this subject is worth 5 pages..

I agree.

As for whether or not it passes, I think that it would do us all well to remember that this is the MT legislature we're talking about.

 

[The Hedgehog]

So.. let's skip this. Who needs to earn a hunter's safety certificate?

 

[drahthaar]

I can see it and hear it now. "Oh man, now I can kill a cow or a bull on my kids tag"(out one side of his mouth), "f'n wolves, they are killing everything"(out the other side of his mouth).

Already heard it many times with the original stupid idea of MT's "youth" hunt.

 

[twodot]

Sitting in a ground blind, or box stand and hunting over a game feeder is vastly different from what much of the hunting in Montana is involved with; shots where the shooter is seated and at a bench rest simply do not occur very often here. Physically, most children less than 12 years old have serious problems with recoil and accuracy, much less physically being able to safely carry a heavy rifle over broken ground. This isnt a Texas sendaro hunt, nor is it Pennsylvania or Wisconsin sitting in a tree stand for a couple hours on opening day. .

Respectfully now steeping off my soapbox,

A Montana Hunter and Bowhunter Education Instructor

This is utter bullsh--. While I have met a very few MT hunters who are all about hardcore get in the back country, hike all day and sleep on a cold rock types. I have also seen the majority of hunters I meet in MT who enjoy a "Ranch style" hunt that involves shooting at deer or elk under a pivot, or like the group at Stanford who have a huge drive and all set in their trucks waiting for the elk to break out of the timber and cross half a mile of open pasture. There are also plenty of tree stand elk hunters along the river in my part of the state. You can make your Montana hunt as easy, or as hard as you want to. No special physical ability is needed any worse than anywhere else.
Still haven't seen a good reason for not letting kids younger than twelve hunt big game mentioned here today. But I remain open to change.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Still haven't seen a good reason for not letting kids younger than twelve hunt big game mentioned here today. But I remain open to change.

The bill reads to allow them to skip the hunter ed training, and testing. You actually think that's a good idea?

 

[The Hedgehog]

Two year olds hunting for a bighorn sheep permit would be pretty cool too. There's not a chance in hell of something this utterly retarded going anywhere.

 

[Sytes]

And here I thought you were stating 5 pages was in excess for this topic...

 

[shoots-straight]

I agree 100%! This will never pass.

What kind of jackass is going to draft a bill that eliminates the need for a hunter's saftey certificate, both firearm and archery, for kids to hunt, so long as somebody's within shouting distance? What a joke

That be my Senator, Scott Boulanger. He was appointed after the not so good Senator Lake took the PSC job. I think he was just glad to have a bill to put forward.

 

[twodot]

Greenhorn, I came from a state where there is no age limit on when someone can hunt. I also taught hunters' ed. there for over 20 years. Honestly I can't see where limiting age has squat to do with safety, ethics, or poaching. There are of course people who want their 5 year old to kill a deer or turkey so they can brag it up. But for the most part all of the problems seem to regulate themselves out. Think about it, it is a pain in the ass to get a little kid who doesn't know how to handle their guns set up for a shot, not to mention game won't just stand around forever waiting for children or inept fathers to get in position. Who wants to take a kid along if they aren't up to the day's outing? They will just ruin it for the adult and also most likely render any attempt at game a mess. So why shouldn't a kid who has been shooting well and is physically fit enough to come along but is only 9 or 10 not be able to have his own tag and come along. My oldest his got his first deer at 7 and that was just about right for him. They all have their own times to be ready, some are pretty darn young.
I don't think bighorns in the mountians would be a kids hunt but bet that if your boy would have drawn a breaks sheep tag when he was 10, you would have eaten mutton that winter.

 

[twodot]

As far as the hunter's ed being skipped until they are 12, I say no big deal. If you are counting on your kid learning proper gun safety and handling at the course, you are asking for trouble. Gun safety is taught from birth at my house and trusted to no one. What they learn from the state course just confirms what ol dad has been teaching for a long time prior.

 

[schmalts]

Volunteer to teach hunters ed...show them how its done.

I did, and he passed with flying colors. Some day you may have a kid and your outlook will change

 

[174in]

When I see my kids are ready I will ask them if they want to try to harvest an animal,if they say yes and the law allows it then its go time as long as they are of age.In my area of wisconsin you buy one deer tag and shoot as many as you want to,so no need of worrying about me filling my kids tag. Actually bought my 4 yr old boy a youth 22 savage rascal this xmas since he dida good job of helping me on the trapline.This summer we are going to go shoot and I will be starting him the safe handling of a firearm.

 

[1_pointer]

I agree with twodot and most in support of this bill. Not sure I agree with removing the hunter's ed part though. I think they should have to follow the same requirements as all sportsmen to include the same seasons. IMO, an age set by law/reg is a bit silly. There are many who are not readyto hunt at 12 just as there are many who are ready to hunt at an age earlier than that. As a parent, I will take full responsibility for deciding that for my kid. Likewise, if he's not ready to drive at 16 he won't. That's the responsibility I accepted when deciding to have kids.

In regards to the filling of tags by others, many that are bringing that point up are pretty vocal that tag #s and game management should be set by science/biology. Of which I agree! If the resource can't sustain the harvest, issue less tags regardless the age of who is filling the tag.

My oldest is 5 and is showing a strong interest in hunting. I took him a few times this year with me, but on those days it was all about him having a good time. I didn't shoot anything either time, however he's still asking to go and to practice his shooting with the BB gun (which BTW looks like an AR! ). So, if I feel he's ready, he'll probably be hunting before he's 12. If that can't be in MT, that's fine and I'll take him somewhere else. That said, I do plan on sending in my comments in support of this bill.

Just a question, how many not in support of this have kids?

 

[RobG]

If you all have had bad experiences with young hunters who are being properly mentored, I would love to hear about them. twodot

A friend shot and killed her dad. That falls into the bad category and is pretty much why there is an age limit. Yes, adults do stupid things too, but kids often don't have the attention span nor experience to keep safe.

Personally I started shooting squirrels and such when I was 9 or 10 but I lived in the sticks and got to practice under controlled conditions quite a bit before I got to walk around with a gun. I'd say that is pretty rare, and I didn't have any problem waiting until I was 12.

We took our 9 year old along on a couple deer hunts this year. He didn't need to shoot to have fun.

rg

 

[Zach]

 

[Topgun 30-06]

What really astonishes me in reading all the negative posts regarding this bill is that you guys making all the negative comments and that it will never fly evidently are very selective readers or are not reading any of the posts by those who are familair with this type of bill and system. This Bill is nearly identical to what has been passed in a number of states already and it's working with not a single problem anywhere! To say it won't work is just flat false! There are also a number of states that have never had any age restrictions and they have no more problems or accidents with the younger kids that the parents deem ready than those states that make them wait until 12 to 14 to hunt big game. The stats are out there in just about every state, so look it up if you need to verify what's being said. In this day and age when almost everyone polled wants less government intrusion in their lives, some of your comments are leaving me shaking my head, especially those who are saying it opens up illegal hunting and poaching. I wonder if any of those making that argument would turn in someone right now that they saw violating the law because that is what a good citizen should do to help the G&F people control violations by those who are stealing our natural resources.

 

[rhomas]

After reading this entire thread from beginning to now, it's become obvious that the question is of most importance as it applies strictly to Montana. This was first brought to my attention with the mention of "party hunting", which is something I have absolutely no idea what the term means. We have club hunting where everyone has a license if they are over the age of 16, and when the hounds are loosed, everyone is on their own stand (post for you Western guys), and if a deer runs by, then each individual has the opportunity to shoot it; regardless of age. Evidently "party hunting" is something entirely different. Also, it appears that using tags is an important part of the discussion, again not relevant in many states such as SC, where we don't have to purchase tags except in the upper state game zones. Safety seems to be the one factor that comes into play, regardless of state, and that's where the parent or guardian is the major influence in the training of kids. As an opponent of hunter safety requirements, I feel that if a parent teaches their kids proper gun handling from the time they are a toddler playing with cap pistols, then graduating to BB guns and .22 single shot rifles, and then to shotguns and high powered rifles, then the state doesn't need to get involved.

If you folks in Montana are willing to accept some arbitrary group of state employees to determine when and how your kids are allowed to learn and participate in our sport, then I have to wonder just what other areas of parenting are you willing to allow the state to regulate! The title of this thread is what got me interested in it to begin with, but now I realize that it was a misleading title. The topic should have been addressed to the discussion about Montana hunting laws for children. If that had been the case, it probably would have been a one or two page thread, and several of us wouldn't even have bothered to read it, much less post in it.

Suffice to say, what works in most states, evidently won't or isn't allowed to work in Montana......and that's a choice for Montanans to determine. By the same token, it's not the right of Montana residents to determine that every other state is decidedly wrong based on the state of affairs that dominate the hunting in Montana. I'll just say that thankfully, I was able to start carrying a gun and killing game as early as I was, and I believe that Travis is a better young man than most of his peers, because he started shooting and hunting at a much younger age than 12.......but, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[TLC]

what's astonishing is that some are not smart enough to realize that this type bill is not a
"one size fits all" type bill. you would think that someone who has a high opinion of himself would know that big game hunting is different in montana, than it is in, let's say, michigan. guessing if you walked in to most first grade classes, 6 year olds, you'd play hell finding many kids that would look like they could handle big game hunting in montana. what works in some states will not work in all states. and as GH has said, no hunters safety class?

they have a mentor program(below)here in illinois. one tag, one gun, parent, guardian, grandparent, must be within arms reach. hunter safety class required.

SPRINGFIELD, IL – The 2012 Illinois Youth Firearm Deer Hunt is Oct. 6-7 for those hunters with a valid Youth Deer Permit who have not reached their 16th birthday by the first day of the hunt. Youth Deer Permits are available over-the-counter at Illinois Department of Natural Resources (IDNR) license vendors throughout the state. Hunters may purchase only one permit (either-sex) for one of the open counties and all participating youths must have completed an IDNR-approved Hunter Education course.

All youth hunters must have a current, valid Youth Deer Permit and have a hunting license or Apprentice Hunting License, unless exempt. Each hunter participating in the Youth Deer Hunt while using an Apprentice Hunter License must be accompanied by a non-hunting, validly-licensed (Illinois hunting license) parent, guardian or grandparent. All other hunters participating in the Youth Deer Hunt must each be accompanied by a non-hunting supervisor (parent, guardian or responsible adult) who has a valid Illinois hunting license or who has in his or her possession a valid Firearm Owners Identification (FOID) card. The non-hunting supervisor must wear the orange garments required of gun deer hunters (blaze orange cap and upper garment with a minimum of 400 square inches of solid blaze orange material), and must remain with the hunting youth. Each supervisor may only accompany a single youth at any given time during the hunt.