Wyoming G&F Improvements

[375H&H]

Do you have harvest data for res and NR hunters to back this up? How many NR tags are allocated vs. the number of resident hunters in those units? My experience over the years leads me to believe there is very little distinction between the two.

I don't have any peer reviewed science on this but I think it is entirely logical and reasonable to think that someone who has invested 10x the money, time, and resources that a resident does is more willing to settle for a lesser buck to have something to show for their efforts. That thought certainly enters my head when I am hunting out of state or country. The data I have is anecdotal, but it includes all the out of state rigs leaving Montana and Wyoming in the fall with lesser bucks on the highways as well as locals across Wyoming and SE Montana.

Cutting some non resident tags for bear would also alleviate that issue as there would be less outfitters wanting to have their client shoot the first bear they see to ensure they go home happy and keep their success rates up. Win win on deer and bear.

 

[JLS]

I don't have any peer reviewed science on this but I think it is entirely logical and reasonable to think that someone who has invested 10x the money, time, and resources that a resident does is more willing to settle for a lesser buck to have something to show for their efforts. That thought certainly enters my head when I am hunting out of state or country. The data I have is anecdotal, but it includes all the out of state rigs leaving Montana and Wyoming in the fall with lesser bucks on the highways as well as locals across Wyoming and SE Montana.

I'll agree to disagree with you. Not peer reviewed either, but years of anecdotal observation tell me it has very little to do with R/NR status, but rather personal preferences and motivations. The guy who trophy hunts in his own state will likely do so in another. The guy who whacks and stacks them in his own state will likely do so in another. I've seen plenty of dink muley bucks die at the hands of resident hunters the last week of the season in MT.

 

[375H&H]

I'll agree to disagree with you. Not peer reviewed either, but years of anecdotal observation tell me it has very little to do with R/NR status, but rather personal preferences and motivations. The guy who trophy hunts in his own state will likely do so in another. The guy who whacks and stacks them in his own state will likely do so in another. I've seen plenty of dink muley bucks die at the hands of resident hunters the last week of the season in MT.

JLS just so I am clear, you are saying that a guy from Michigan who waited 7 years to draw a region G tag, drove 16 hours, begged to get a week away from home and work, and paid far more than a resident is no more likely to shoot a younger buck than a guy in Kemmerer that has bought that tag at the corner store for the past 10 years and can hunt most of the entire season?

 

[JLS]

JLS just so I am clear, you are saying that a guy from Michigan who waited 7 years to draw a region G tag, drove 16 hours, begged to get a week away from home and work, and paid far more than a resident is no more likely to shoot a younger buck than a guy in Kemmerer that has bought that tag at the corner store for the past 10 years and can hunt most of the entire season?

This is what I'm saying

The guy who trophy hunts in his own state will likely do so in another. The guy who whacks and stacks them in his own state will likely do so in another.

 

[Hunting Wife]

The only study I could find right off that touched on the particular issue of trophy importance based on residency. Granted, the NR sample in this study is from those hiring guides. I didn’t read the whole thing...just providing a reference here in case it is useful or enlightening.

Looked like lots of interesting articles in the lit cited for anyone involved in these management discussions, and inclined to do some digging on this topic while avoiding the cold today...

http://www.animalsandsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/eliason.pdf

 

[375H&H]

Another aspect I think would be a good improvement from the G&F is more native big game in more places. For instance, grizzlies and wolves could probably have a slightly larger range as well as buffalo, which it seems like they are just tolerated for the most part. Wolverines would be another critter that would be awesome to bring back to trappable levels. I understand that there is a study going on for wolverines and their range and am interested to see what comes out of it. Look up the wolverine that was shot in North Dakota for an interesting story about how nomadic they are.

I understand that some sacrifices would have to be made on all sides but I think it would be cool to have those critters in more than basically just yellowstone and surrounds. I read a report from about 10 years ago that said that the Bighorn mountains would never be included in the grizzly recovery area and was bummed to see that even though they would naturally make it there through the owl creek mountains. The reason was that human/bear conflict potential was too great, but that seems like a lame excuse to me given that every year people are attacked in Yellowstone and Glacier and the sacrifices that have been made there and around to accomodate.

Anyway, curious what other people's thoughts are on this.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Be careful what you wish for 375H&H! There are too many wolves and grizzlies now and we don't need them going out any further toward civilization than they already have. Incidentally, there are wolves in the BigHorns and have been for some time now, bu the Feds and the WYG&F are trying to keep it as quiet as they can. A pack of 8 came down into the foothills on the west side of the mountains a few years ago and killed 40+ sheep in one night on a ranch I used to hunt right next to where I hunt now. A Fed was called in and he killed 3 in a fixed wing aircraft and one was the alpha and had a collar on. They found that he had been trapped and collared north of Yellowstone around the Gardner, MT area. That is one long, long way from where he ended up with that pack!

 

[375H&H]

Be careful what you wish for 375H&H! There are too many wolves and grizzlies now and we don't need them going out any further toward civilization than they already have. Incidentally, there are wolves in the BigHorns and have been for some time now, bu the Feds and the WYG&F are trying to keep it as quiet as they can. A pack of 8 came down into the foothills on the west side of the mountains a few years ago and killed 40+ sheep in one night on a ranch I used to hunt right next to where I hunt now. A Fed was called in and he killed 3 in a fixed wing aircraft and one was the alpha and had a collar on. They found that he had been trapped and collared north of Yellowstone around the Gardner, MT area. That is one long, long way from where he ended up with that pack!

Yeah I know about the wolves in the bighorns. Have yet to see one though.

I don't understand all of the "be careful with wolves" comments. The 2 places in North America that have the most wolves, Canada and Alaska, have some of the best hunting!! No way can we have as many wolves as they do but I think we could stand to have a few more. Also, the number 1 county for trophy bull elk in Wyoming is still Park County, even after wolves and grizzlies "killed everything".

 

[Topgun 30-06]

They haven't "killed everything", but they're working on it! Your comment about Alaska and Canada are a little different from the lower 48 states, as the size of Alaska alone is like a lot of our western states put together and there are nowhere near the hunters there as compared to any of the lower 48 states. Grizzlies are now starting to come down into Cody and there was a wolf sighting right in the neighborhood just south of town where my buddy is going to be building a retirement home next year!

 

[ClearCreek]

Be careful what you wish for 375H&H! There are too many wolves and grizzlies now and we don't need them going out any further toward civilization than they already have. Incidentally, there are wolves in the BigHorns and have been for some time now, bu the Feds and the WYG&F are trying to keep it as quiet as they can. A pack of 8 came down into the foothills on the west side of the mountains a few years ago and killed 40+ sheep in one night on a ranch I used to hunt right next to where I hunt now. A Fed was called in and he killed 3 in a fixed wing aircraft and one was the alpha and had a collar on. They found that he had been trapped and collared north of Yellowstone around the Gardner, MT area. That is one long, long way from where he ended up with that pack!

Topgun - why would G&F and Feds want to keep it quite that there are wolves in the Bighorns? Do you know if any wolves have been shot in the Bighorns since they were de-listed?

ClearCreek

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Good question ClearCreek! Why don't the various state officials admit that there are cougars in some of the midwest states even though reputable people have seen them? The only way I found out about the three that were shot on that ranch where I used to hunt is because I know that rancher and his closest neighbor where we still hunt some along with the father of the Fed that shot them. To the best of my knowledge nothing was ever put in any of the local papers in the area. No, I've not heard of any wolves being shot in the Big Horns since they were delisted and they can be shot any time there without a license. I know my buddy and I were ready to pop one if we had a chance, but the population is pretty low and the chances of seeing one or getting one are probably one in a million. The closest we've come was later that year that the 3 were shot when we were doing some fence work on the ranch next to where they were shot and found a huge track in the mud along that fence and it was certainly a wolf that made it because I've seen wolf tracks in Canada before and there is no comparison between an adult wolf track and a big coyote.

 

[Gerald Martin]

My request would be two dozen antelope tags set aside for the Hunttalk One Shot Club.

 

[JM77]

Topgun - why would G&F and Feds want to keep it quite that there are wolves in the Bighorns? Do you know if any wolves have been shot in the Bighorns since they were de-listed?

ClearCreek

Since predator status was reinstated, there have been 7 wolves killed between Casper and Rawlins, and yes wolves are in the Bighorns too. I know of wolves being killed in the Bighorns as much as five or more years ago. Topgun, as far as I know there is no attempt by the G&F to keep quiet about how wolves have spread throughout the state and there never has been. Quite the opposite actually.

And so much for increasing the range of the lobo 375H&H. You have some interesting ideas to say the least. We'll see how that works out in the predator zone.

 

[JM77]

My request would be two dozen antelope tags set aside for the Hunttalk One Shot Club.

Might as well go for 80 Gerald, like the rest of the exclusive clubs are doing!

 

[belly-deep]

Yeah I know about the wolves in the bighorns. Have yet to see one though.

I don't understand all of the "be careful with wolves" comments. The 2 places in North America that have the most wolves, Canada and Alaska, have some of the best hunting!! No way can we have as many wolves as they do but I think we could stand to have a few more. Also, the number 1 county for trophy bull elk in Wyoming is still Park County, even after wolves and grizzlies "killed everything".

Alaska does some heavy predator culling, including shooting wolves from aircraft, I believe.

But roadless areas and hunters per square mile also differ.

You really can’t point to AK and Canada and say “see!” when talking about managing wildlife in the lower 48. Apples to oranges.

Also, I’ve heard Alaskans say that anything that is accessible by foot from a roadway is not what most envision when they think AK hunting. The bush plane stuff is not the whole picture.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

I wanted to start a thread about some improvements that the Wyoming G&F could make to their system of wildlife management. Now let me say that overall I believe they do an amazing job as there are significant opportunities and amazing quality for all species, but these are a few tweaks that I think should be incorporated:

Better management of mule deer. The region with the highest trophy potential is general for residents and over run with people. More draw units would be my suggestion in a lot of regions in the state that have trophy potential also to increase the size of the deer herd.

Bear baiting. I have no issue with baiting but I do have an issue with a 2 month season that only goes 5 days because the quota gets filled. Not a lot of opportunity and I think that could be increased with better management of the baiting done in the state.

Let's hear your suggestions and maybe some will fall on open ears.

As far as tweeks.

I would love to see Turkeys introduced to Seedskadee and I would love to see more turkeys on Cedar Mountain.

I would love to see the installation of the heated duck pond or a waterfowl management area similar to those on the Wasatch front. We got lucky this year with the warm temps, last year the Green was locked up for the most part at this time. This would also help with the conservation of the Trumpeter swans in the area.

I would love to see chukars planted again by the gorge.

With the gorge, I think it would be a good thing to raise the Mack Pup (Less than 28") limit to 24 or 32, with an unlimited possession limit and let those that actually target them take more home.

As far as bear baiting, I would like to see a draw for areas - so that outfitters and long time residents do not get the same area every year by just having the area the year previous.

As far as MD in region G. I think a general tag October 1-14 and a limited quota alpine tag for September 15-30 could work, but I think it is fine the way it is; because a lot of people road hunt it.

As far as region H. It is a lot of wilderness and with wilderness areas an early start date is preferable, so people do not get trapped in the mountains.

I dislike the idea of turning Wyoming in Utah where there is a draw for everything. (I imagine in the future Utah will draw for duck blinds and pheasant hunts)

Non Residents in the Wilderness.

As far as youth, hold them to the same antler restrictions. Just give them a couple days before and a couple days after the general season.

Most of these are luxury items, the Wyoming game and fish does an excellent job.

 

[375H&H]

Good question ClearCreek! Why don't the various state officials admit that there are cougars in some of the midwest states even though reputable people have seen them? The only way I found out about the three that were shot on that ranch where I used to hunt is because I know that rancher and his closest neighbor where we still hunt some along with the father of the Fed that shot them. To the best of my knowledge nothing was ever put in any of the local papers in the area. No, I've not heard of any wolves being shot in the Big Horns since they were delisted and they can be shot any time there without a license. I know my buddy and I were ready to pop one if we had a chance, but the population is pretty low and the chances of seeing one or getting one are probably one in a million. The closest we've come was later that year that the 3 were shot when we were doing some fence work on the ranch next to where they were shot and found a huge track in the mud along that fence and it was certainly a wolf that made it because I've seen wolf tracks in Canada before and there is no comparison between an adult wolf track and a big coyote.

All of the wolf kills in the bighorns were in the Sheridan paper. G&F is not trying to hide anything as they were all released to press.

 

[375H&H]

Since predator status was reinstated, there have been 7 wolves killed between Casper and Rawlins, and yes wolves are in the Bighorns too. I know of wolves being killed in the Bighorns as much as five or more years ago. Topgun, as far as I know there is no attempt by the G&F to keep quiet about how wolves have spread throughout the state and there never has been. Quite the opposite actually.

And so much for increasing the range of the lobo 375H&H. You have some interesting ideas to say the least. We'll see how that works out in the predator zone.

Please expand on my "interesting ideas".

 

[Topgun 30-06]

All of the wolf kills in the bighorns were in the Sheridan paper. G&F is not trying to hide anything as they were all released to press.

I'm just going by what friends have told me that live in Worland and are good friends with the Father of the Fed trapper that killed the 3 near where we hunt. They never saw anything in their paper about it and I don't think my buddy that lives in Sheridan saw anything in the paper up there either, but they might have missed the press release if it was in either of them.

 

[JM77]

Please expand on my "interesting ideas".

I'm being sarcastic. Your idea to expand wolves for better hunting is about on par with the film professing the "rebirth " of Yellowstone because of wolf reintroduction.

About the only thing I agree with you on this post is that NR hunters have a higher success percentage than residents. Many of your other ideas and statements are wrong.

Let me list some as examples:
LQ areas increase herd size- it may increase buck numbers, but does nothing to increase does and fawns, which would be required to increase herd size..
More bucks mean more does bred- not true unless buck/doe is under 10/100 and I'm not sure where that could be, it certainly isn't in the area you are talking about.
You have seen it "clearly stated" that corner crossing is illegal-this is totally false as the legality or illegality of cc is anything but clear, as there currently is no statute or regulation
that addresses this issue.