Wyoming 2018

[JDH]

How many years do you suppose it would take of applying to draw a NM bighorn tag? I'd suggest saving until you draw, then that 3k might be easy to come by in 15yrs.

Or move to new mexico.

I don't understand why folks try to tie tag fees into public land usage.

Because it is limiting what some people like to do. Hunt. And those people own the land.

I'm not going to go to WY or MT to go camping or hiking on public lands...I'm going to go out there with a tag in my pocket.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

No.

Most everyone is a non resident at some point. It might be as simple as a person moved a state away and wants to return to hunt with family. No problem with it costing more, but things like $2,000-$3,000 tags are ridiculous. That only allows the wealthy to hunt.

It only allows the wealthy to do tourist hunting, ie hunt as non-residents. One could always move to the state that they want to hunt in if that was a major priority for them. Personally I don't think I will ever be able to afford 20k for a brown bear or dall sheep hunt in AK, that said I have expressed to my wife that I really want to do this and we have discussed the possibility of moving to AK for a couple of years at some point so I can do all the hunts on my list. Not saying we will do it, but maybe.

Further, if you are hunting for meat then non-resident hunts don't make sense in a cost benefit since, I'm sure you aren't going to Alabama to hunt whitetails all the time correct? Therefore one can assume any nonresident hunt is a trophy hunt, with either the rack or just the experience being the trophy. So given this fact states charge less for there own citizenry to harvest meat and more for others to have a trophy experience. The ridiculous cost, and I agree it's insane $6k for a bison in WY... crazy, is based on market pressure and right now the market has shown that it will support non-resident tag prices far in excess of the current price.

I do lots of hunts out of state and I bite the bullet because I would rather trudge up a mountain in MT or ID than sit on a beach in mexico.

Yeah the situation sucks and doesn't look to get better, but in all honesty I think it's as it should be and I think we haven't even gotten close to peak non-resident prices.

 

[LopeHunter]

No.

Most everyone is a non resident at some point. It might be as simple as a person moved a state away and wants to return to hunt with family. No problem with it costing more, but things like $2,000-$3,000 tags are ridiculous. That only allows the wealthy to hunt.

I am one of those that could pay a lot for a tag. I also have 3 grandchildren so when I look at a tag over $1000 I now think, well, that could buy a few books during college for the grandkid. I ran a trapline as a kid and measured the value of a muskrat, raccoon or coyote pelt in 6-packs of beer. The value in dollars did not mean much but beer had meaning. Decades later, I am measuring big game tags in college books for grandkids. The cost of the tag is not the sticker shock as is how many school books that buys.

Quick math recap. If you have 21 numbers and add them up then the total divided by 21 is the mean amount or what most of us think as the average. Median is the number when arrange the 21 numbers from lowest to highest and in my example you count along the string of numbers until get to the 11th number. 10 numbers are higher in value and 10 are lower. In the USA if you added up what all American families between 56 and 61 then:
Mean retirement savings of families between 56 and 61: $163,577
Median retirement savings of families between 56 and 61: $17,000
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/07/how...ly-has-saved-for-retirement-at-every-age.html

So $1200 for a tag to hunt an elk or $4000 to hunt a bull bison is not an inconsequential amount for a lot of households to gather. We all need to make decisions that are smart for our situation. In some cases some of us can't afford the tags now and in some cases some of us do not see the value now. Plenty of us will apply in 2018 though get used to a lot of folks bailing as burn up their decade of points the next year or two. Also, get used to sharing the woods with a mix of hunters that trends towards Richie Rich and less Joe SixPacks. That means more hunters hiring outfitters and more outfitters leasing up land and more landowners seeking to block access to public land. And, more grey haired hunters wanting UTV trails and fewer bright-eyed and bushy tailed youngsters on opening morning.

You can hunt a lot of things like rabbits and squirrels without a $1000 tag. Nothing wrong with that approach. I tend to get along with squirrel hunters a lot better than elk hunters. Never met a squirrel hunter that tried to tie a busted lawn chair near a waterhole and claim they owned the entire national forest.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Never met a squirrel hunter that tried to tie a busted lawn chair near a waterhole and claim they owned the entire national forest.

Not to hijack this thread, but please tell me this really happened and that there is more to the story, what state were you in?

 

[jtm307]

The cost of the tag is not the sticker shock as is how many school books that buys.

That's an interesting point. College textbooks are definitely inflated by publishers beyond the market price, and schools do whatever they can to corner the market and suppress competition. For this reason, I either didn't buy books, or I looked for older editions for cents on the dollar. Big game tags, on the other hand, even after the increases like in WY, are well below their market price. Anyone who hunts, even a NR, is getting a solid discount.

 

[3855WIN]

It only allows the wealthy to do tourist hunting, ie hunt as non-residents. One could always move to the state that they want to hunt in if that was a major priority for them. Personally I don't think I will ever be able to afford 20k for a brown bear or dall sheep hunt in AK, that said I have expressed to my wife that I really want to do this and we have discussed the possibility of moving to AK for a couple of years at some point so I can do all the hunts on my list. Not saying we will do it, but maybe.

Further, if you are hunting for meat then non-resident hunts don't make sense in a cost benefit since, I'm sure you aren't going to Alabama to hunt whitetails all the time correct? Therefore one can assume any nonresident hunt is a trophy hunt, with either the rack or just the experience being the trophy. So given this fact states charge less for there own citizenry to harvest meat and more for others to have a trophy experience. The ridiculous cost, and I agree it's insane $6k for a bison in WY... crazy, is based on market pressure and right now the market has shown that it will support non-resident tag prices far in excess of the current price.

I do lots of hunts out of state and I bite the bullet because I would rather trudge up a mountain in MT or ID than sit on a beach in mexico.

Yeah the situation sucks and doesn't look to get better, but in all honesty I think it's as it should be and I think we haven't even gotten close to peak non-resident prices.

Not going to Bama all the time to hunt, but I do cross the river and hunt Louisiana on family land. That pushes $1,000 per year in tag fees for son and I.
Why do tag prices have to be market driven? I get that guided hunts are market driven. But why is a government agency allowing prices to be market driven? What various states are saying is "screw you, but please come and spend money with our outfitters, taxidermist, hotels, etc"

 

[jtm307]

But why is a government agency allowing prices to be market driven?

They're not market driven. That's why prices are going up by 20% instead of 2,000%.

 

[VikingsGuy]

even after the increases like in WY, are well below their market price.

I agree with your point. I wonder if WY (and other states) held open bids for their NR licenses what the market price would be after a few years (to let the novelty and "bucket-list" buyers to work their way out of the system)? I would guess 2-3 times their current price.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Not going to Bama all the time to hunt, but I do cross the river and hunt Louisiana on family land. That pushes $1,000 per year in tag fees for son and I.
Why do tag prices have to be market driven? I get that guided hunts are market driven. But why is a government agency allowing prices to be market driven? What various states are saying is "screw you, but please come and spend money with our outfitters, taxidermist, hotels, etc"

JTM is right they aren't entirely tied to market demand, but I think that is because States are more conservative in price increase then say a business would be about their product. To your point 3855WIN why wouldn't the state want to get as much money as possible out of tourists, the dollars make up a big portion of their budgets as long as they don't see demand drop why not. Honestly it's not so much the government who is dictating prices as it is the citizens of each state. Resident license aren't the same price because residents get a say in the price through legislation and every state has decided "we" should have to pay less than "them". Pretty much worldwide hunting tourism has been acknowledge to be a good way to fund conservation and it's really expensive everywhere.

In order for tourist hunting to be really economical you would have to have a nation wide sentiment that tourist hunting is inherently valuable and an experience we should subsidize by keeping prices artificially low, and that will never happen.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I agree with your point. I wonder if WY (and other states) held open bids for their NR licenses what the market price would be after a few years (to let the novelty and "bucket-list" buyers to work their way out of the system)? I would guess 2-3 times their current price.

Would be interesting if there was a robust dataset that showed average household income of resident v. non-resident hunter for various species. I bet for some species like sheep or moose the price might even be 9-10 times as high. Especially if that price meant less applicants and therefore better draw odds.

 

[3855WIN]

Would be nice to see what Wyoming brings in annually from non resident big game liscense fees. I did a search on it, but came up zero. Not sure they want it advertised.

 

[3855WIN]

They're not market driven. That's why prices are going up by 20% instead of 2,000%.

So you think the market will pay $2,000 for an elk tag?

 

[1_pointer]

So you think the market will pay $2,000 for an elk tag?

Depending on the unit, easily! I know the last elk tag I drew in WY that'd I'd gladly pay $2K every year to have that tag.

 

[VikingsGuy]

So you think the market will pay $2,000 for an elk tag?

High fence listings on the internet show elk fees of $5,000 and up for far less of an experience (in my opinion, not having done one) so I would guess the answer is yes.

 

[3855WIN]

High fence listings on the internet show elk fees of $5,000 and up for far less of an experience (in my opinion, not having done one) so I would guess the answer is yes.

That’s on private land. Whole different ball of wax.

 

[npaden]

To get a good idea of the "market value" of elk tags, transferable landowner tags would be a good method.

Landowner elk tags in New Mexico start at $350 or so for cow tags. Bull tags for mediocre units are going to be starting around $2,500 to $3,000 and the better units are going to be pushing up near $7,500. The best units will cross the $10,000 mark.

Most of these are "unit wide" tags that are good on public land. Pretty much the same exact tag as if you drew the tag in a drawing. I believe you technically get permission to hunt the land of the person who originally got the tag, but generally these are sold to be used on public land.

Here's a listing of the tags sold this year - http://www.hunterstrailhead.com/index.php?ID=458

I think you still have to pay the regular tag fee to the state but I'm not sure on that.

 

[VikingsGuy]

That’s on private land. Whole different ball of wax.

Obviously, but it gives an example of how much folks are willing to pay to shoot an elk.

 

[Flatland Crusoe]

So you think the market will pay $2,000 for an elk tag?

Midwest guys will pay $3000 in whitetail leases annually ($30/acre X 100 acres, $20/acre x 150 acres) so yeah elk are gonna go for way more. If there is effectively a waitlist in a lot of states of 5, 10 or 20 years to then pay $600-$1000/tag for an elk tag $2,000 is way low.

 

[mixedbag]

Personally,I think the special draw odds will get slightly better the next couple years.They had trouble selling out combos in Montana for what 5 years.That was a little over 1k and included a deer tag.Obviously top units will still be difficult at best.I think point creep went up last year related to this increase.I'm the only guy out of all the western hunters I'm friends with that will pay the special tag fee.They think I'm crazy.It may just be that I change to building points and hunting every few years on decent units.I real interested to see if Montana goes to a draw again next year

 

[3855WIN]

Midwest guys will pay $3000 in whitetail leases annually ($30/acre X 100 acres, $20/acre x 150 acres) so yeah elk are gonna go for way more. If there is effectively a waitlist in a lot of states of 5, 10 or 20 years to then pay $600-$1000/tag for an elk tag $2,000 is way low.

Is the state charging them the lease fees? No. The state charges the liscense fee. Big difference.