Would you still hunt with....

[cowboymama]

Ranch/CRP, used to farm and lease farm ground on the res. It's small but there's game. They let everybody hunt who asks, and have most in block mgt.

BS/Cowmama: Are you an outfitter? Do you lease to an outfitter? How are you tied to the Eastman's Way? How often do you whistle the tune of High, Wild, and Free? How many acres/cows do you have?

Hi Greenhorn fella!

I don't recall posting to you, but I guess I can try to answer your questions or refer you to my posts. Am I an Outfitter, NO, is BS (the jackass that yelled at me for posting), NO. If you look at my post to NEMONT, I have some questions in regards to Outfitters and that is why I am on here. I have no idea what the tune of "High, Wild and Free" even is nor do I have any clue as to where Eastman's Way is? . How many acres/cows I have is none of your damn business, but it is over 20,000, is beautiful pine tree lined hills and meadows with a flowing river, is fully-stocked and worth a hell of a lot of money whether there are deer and antelope on it or not. Plus, I am pretty sure that it is mine to manage the way I see fit. If there was a problem about asking for info on Outfitters on this post, I was not aware of it. Obviously, Outfitting is legal in Montana. So, can YOU direct me to any information, or should I just contact the MT Outfitters and Guides and ask for a list of names of Outfitters?

 

[Blue Yummies]

Must be an english teacher on the side? I hope your sister is this fiesty.

 

[Big Fin]

Cowboymomma (and I guess BS):

You have made quite a splash with your first series of posts. Taking on two of the most informed and experienced "ranch boys" on the site - Greenhorn and NEMont. Nothing like walking in and announcing your presence.

Are you offended that hunting forums are a mix of information, humor, and entertainment? Sometimes, the mix is equal among the three, and sometimes it is all one or the others. Thus the joy of watching when it is mostly humor, rather than information.

That being said, I am a CPA who helps many Montana landowners with their business negotiations and contracts, some of which are with outfitters. Trying to see through your "spirited" comments, I am going to provide my two cents, based on experiences of my clients working with outfitters.

Take them for what they are worth. It is these experiences of working with clients and their outfitters that have led me to the conclusion that many outfitters are so crooked, you could screw them into the ground.

1. Somewhere along the way it was stated that there are jerks in the hunter and rancher community. Don't forget that the same holds true for outfitters. In fact, I find the outfitting business to have a higher percentage of scoundrels than most other businesses. Any operation that is viewed as an opportunity to earn a 12 month income in 3 months of work, attracts some of the "easy money" attitudes and personalities.

2. Don't think this will stop hunters from knocking on your door. They will knock on your door, not the outfitter's door. They will call your number, not the outfitter's number. Wish it were different, but that is how it is. You will not be solving that problem to the degree you hope.

3. Expect to get the screws put to you at some point. The outfitter will want to pay you "per animal." That is no guarantee for you. His clients only want big antlers, so they may show up, only to find you don't have big enough bucks/bulls, so you get no revenue.

4. Don't expect any doe harvest from him. Hopefully your lease payments are enough to offset the crop damage. Once you lease, you eliminate any possibility of game damage payments, assistance with fencing, or special management seasons. His guys will not shoot does, so better figure out how you are going to keep numbers in check.

5. Don't expect to have many outfitters to chose from. The outfitting industry has set limits on the number of outfitters in MT. As such, you don't have many guys operating in your geographic area to chose from. Few options to work with puts you in the bad position, and them in the bargaining position.

6. Expect them, and their high-dollar clients, to be fickle and hard to deal with. They will be as bad as, or worse than, the hunters you despise, when it comes to driving off roads, driving on muddy roads, not spraying vehicles to rid them of noxious weeds, parking their catalytic converters over tall dry prairie grass, etc. Don't take for granted that they grew up in rural areas like most of us on this forum, so they may not know the do's and don't's of proper ranch etiquette.

7. Expect some of your neighboring operators to view you as a sanctuary for critters, and maybe get pissed off that when they are trying to manage animal numbers with a reasonable management plan. It is almost impossible for them to do so, when the outfitting arrangement you have allows does/cows to bunch up all day on your property, then head to the neighbor's property at dark, or after season. This has started more disagreements among neighbors than any hunting issue I have seen.

I am always surprised when a landowner looks to outfitters as the solution. The outfitter benefits from conflict and chaos. He is the guy driving the wedge between hunters and landowners, and he is making money while the fight escalates.

The outfitter has somehow convinced the legislature to funnel 5,500 deer/elk combo tags through them, and another 2,000 deer tags. This is spread among the 300 or so outfitters. If you add that revenue together of 7,500 deer hunts at $3,000 each and 5,500 elk hunts at $5,000 each, the total revenue is $50,000,000. That gets funneled through those 300 hundred outfitter businesses, and they will do anything to keep it that way.

They have none of the assets involved in the wildlife transaction. You own the land, and the public owns the wildlife. Any sane person has to stand back and ask why we funnel this transaction through a select group of businesses, when those businesses own none of the assets involved in the transactiion. They don't give a crap about you. They only care about you, so long as they can continue to make money off you, via the current state subsidy they get in the form of guaranteed licenses.

Want to see how much they care about you? Start talking about legislation that eliminates the outfitter requirement and allows a landowner to work directly with any of these 5,500 non-resident hunters, without an involving an outfitter. They hate that idea, as they know that is the perfect world for you. You get more revenue than if you leased to an outfitter, and you could work with local hunters who would help you keep numbers in check. I know this, as I have worked with my landowner clients to discuss ways to get rid of the outfitter requirement. For doing so, I have worked my way pretty far up the "shithead" list over at MOGA, quite proudly, I must add. I strongly feel that if landowners would see how they are getting screwed by outfitters, they would work with hunters to find a way better solution than what currently exists.

Enough of my rambling. Take my comments for what they are worth. Good luck in your search. As NEMont said, there are some good ones, but working with one is a crap shoot.

And, lighten up a bit. Most every person posting on this site comes from a rural background such as you. They know how it works, and have family who chose to "stay on the farm." Most of us deal with lots of landowners as family members, friends, and clients, and we know what is the truth and what is manufactured bullchit about hunter-landowner relations.

We all know that some of the bad hunter behavior stories are true, but we also know that much of what is continually circulated by the landowner community about hunter behavior is anecdotal bullchit. And, there is always an outfitter nearby to stir the bullchit pot.

Let us know how your search goes. Here is the link for MOGA http://www.montanaoutfitters.org.

 

[Big Shooter]

Greenhorn...On the CRP subject, I have nothing against it and I didn't mean to come across that way, we just don't have any. I think it does wonders for wildlife.

Blue Yummies.........I am a little vague on the rubbing hot sauce in your eyes to drive home thing, but am wondering if that is directly related to the (6) incidents.

NeMont....|oo

 

[Nemont]

NeMont....|oo

BS,
I'd bang my head too if my spouse was on a hunting forum asking how to lease my land out to an outfitter.

CBM,
BigFin laid it all out for you. The only thing I would add is that you paint with a pretty big brush.

Just a question:
Wouldn't you two be more comfortable going to your home website at UPOM and commiserating with other like minded landowners? You know the guys who think that punishing Resident hunters for Outfitter greed is the best way to advance landowner/hunter relationships. Since my bet is that you are already paying members of that organization I think you would feel much more acclimated to the way they think about resident hunters and how big of a nuisance the laws of the State of Montana are.

Nemont

 

[Blue Yummies]

I am not the smartest man but, I think Nmotn wants you two to leave

 

[noharleyyet]

I am not the smartest man but, I think Nmotn wants you two to leave

I think you'd have to be smarter than Nemont makes you appear...but I'll take your word for it.

 

[Nemont]

I am not the smartest man.

I think I already established that.

Nemont

 

[Big Fin]

I am not the smartest man but, I think Nmotn wants you two to leave

Having watched NEMont spar with people for many years, I don't think he has to ask anyone to leave. They usually realize they are overmatched and make that decision themselves. He is always up for the good match, and though I might be wrong, I think he likes playing the "Aw shucks, I'm just a clueless goat roper from NE Montana, and I don't know chit" routine, then when the opposition sticks his neck in the noose, he applies pressure to varying degrees.

I think BS and CM should stay around. They will add some flavor and perspective the occassional debates about landowners and wildlife. Hell, by the time it is done, they might be inviting us to interview the outfitters they are considering.

Well, let's not get too carried away here Fin.

 

[Meatatarian]

The outfitter has somehow convinced the legislature to funnel 5,500 deer/elk combo tags through them, and another 2,000 deer tags. This is spread among the 300 or so outfitters. If you add that revenue together of 7,500 deer hunts at $3,000 each and 5,500 elk hunts at $5,000 each, the total revenue is $50,000,000. That gets funneled through those 300 hundred outfitter businesses, and they will do anything to keep it that way.

This bill will have a snowball's chance in hell of making it through the Legislature to change that, IF it's even introduced. But it shows the push back has begun and you never know what kind of Initiatives it'll lead to...

http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/2009/lchtml/LC1068.htm

 

[Blue Yummies]

The only thing that you have established nemot is that:

A. You wouldnt make a pimple on a good cowboys ass
B. That you are not creative, you just repeat what I say
C. After reading this site, you have never sounded intelligent and the only way people left was because you bored them to death.
D.That you must let fin screw up your taxes to have someone with an actual job vouge for you.
E. The only thing you have an advantage on is probably your age.
F. And......Still waiting for one legit point

 

[Nemont]

The only thing that you have established nemot is that:

A. You wouldnt make a pimple on a good cowboys ass
B. That you are not creative, you just repeat what I say
C. After reading this site, you have never sounded intelligent and the only way people left was because you bored them to death.
D.That you must let fin screw up your taxes to have someone with an actual job vouge for you.

Date of Birth:
January 11, 1972
Age:
37
Biography:
Born in LA, and came to Montana to get away from people and try to hunt, Hasn't worked
Location:
Bozeman, MT
Interests:
Hunting, Drinking, Chasing cars
Occupation:
Go get her, I drop her off at work then I go get her.
displayname:
Blue Yummy
loginname:
Blue Yummies
ZIP Code:
59715

Jimmy crack corn.......

Nemont

 

[Blue Yummies]

Again NO Creativity, have to use my profile to hurt me
OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Nemont]

Haven't you figured it out I am a "Aw shucks goat roper from North East Montana", I don't have any creativity. Therefore I give 2 shits if you are hurt or not.

Speaking of creativity I am not the one that moved to a state with with 30 million acres of public land and about 200,000 hunters and still can't figure out how to find a place to hunt. But what do I know other then goat roping is fun.

Nemont

 

[DRAFTSTUD]

But, Yes if that person hasn't killed the last of a Species and shows true regret for the Deeds that he has done I might consider the option of Hunting with them again. But, at the first sign of them repeating their before mentioned act of Civil Disconduct, Hey I'm on the other side of the Orange Fence Post! John

 

[BigHornRam]

Only 38 posts by Blue Dummy and he has officially beat out Jose as the most annoying asshole on hunt talk.

 

[Moosie]

Hell you give up that title pretty Quick. If Jose loses the title, he'll work hard to get it back.... theres no doubt there

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hell you give up that title pretty Quick. If Jose loses the title, he'll work hard to get it back.... theres no doubt there

I am not worried.

 

[Moosie]

I figured after that many posts you wouldn't be. Heck, we have alot more people that are annoying that have posted WAY more then 38 times and haven't taken it yet

 

[noharleyyet]

I am not worried.

...nor should you be.