Would like to know......

[TLC]

can one of you guys out west explain to me the reasoning behind the drawing system for tags out west?

here in the midwest, in illinois anyways, we can get a hunting license and hunt everything legal except for deer, turkey, and waterfowl. you need permits for those. but all you need to do to get these is apply. bow permits are $26.50 over the counter for deer and allows you to hunt anywhere thats open for deer. chicago(cook county) excluded in open counties. same for the turkey bow permit. $5.00 over the counter. gun permits are by county. $15.00 per permit. 2 maximum. you apply and get a first choice and second choice. you can also get a muzzleloader permit for $15.00. waterfowl is just a matter of buying all the extra licenses. and as far as qauntity of deer able to be taken. you can harvest up to 2 bucks. buck being considered an animal that has at least 3 inches of antler. does are as many as you want to pay for. bow permits are 2 to a permit, and as long as you want to pay for them, you can hunt.

have never understood how/why the DNR's out there can say you can't hunt in your own state. the drawing deal. and still can't figure out this point system thing. does it have to do with the number of hunters? the amount of game you have?

came out last may and hunted bear in adaho and will be back again this may. had no trouble with getting the tags needed. hunted in a 2 bear area. going to be looking into an antelope hunt for '09, and an elk hunt at some point and want to try to understand all these point things and drawings and such. especially since I may even look into a mule deer hunt. not sure where I will go on these other hunts, but want to be prepared.

thanks for any info guys.

 

[Moosie]

TLC, there needs to be a ballance in tags. If every area was an over the counter tag the Quality of animals would be very limited. If you look at the maturity of animals coming out of Hard to draw areasthey are usually alot better then over the counter.

Here in Idaho, we can buy tags still over the counter for general areas and still have a good chance of getting a good animal. Mostly because it's hard to get to places and most people don't do that.

Quality over quantity of the tags and animals I would say sums up the reasoning. Some areas goto draw to limit the amout of hunters to increase or maintain herds, other areas limit the amount for quality game.

 

[TLC]

thanks Moosie. understand that part of it since they limit the amount of permits to a certain county here, but we always, as a state, record BIG bucks. any ideas on the point deal I was asking about? is it because of the amount of animals available in total?

 

[ringer]

Arizona has 35000 elk. I think 90000 people put in for around 17000 tags each year and 1700 are for non residents so our resident chance to hunt is rare. I waited 6 years between the last elk hunts. Points are really a lottery so someone can actually get drawn the first time they put in. There is now a setaside for the people with the most points so that if your luck stinks you can still get a tag before you die. The allocation for non-residents is 10% so you do have a chance for reserved tags where you are competing with other NR. There are just way too many hunters for the limited herd and habitat here.

 

[MattK]

TLC-Between Moosie and Ringer it basically sums up the tag systems. It's a way of getting quality animals, manage herd size as well as give people who put in year after year a better chance of getting a tag once in their lifetime. In MT Bighorn sheep would be one of the better examples. If anyone could get an over-the-counter tag, you wouldn't see a sheep left in this state. The tags have to be limitted due to numbers. At the same time, with the number of people who put in for the limitted tags, your odds are about 1% each year. With these odds it would take 100 years to get a permit. With bonus points, each year your odds get better and better. The odds are still weak but in 20- 30 years, there's a good chance you might get an opportunity to get a quality big game animal.

 

[1_pointer]

Demand is WAY higher than supply in most Western states. The opposite is true of the Midwest/Southeast states.

 

[Moosie]

Points is jsut that, Points. I think alot of states used the Points Squared thing. Wht it does is give you the chance of drawing a tag if you loyally put in. In my example, It will be made up but you'll get the point.

If 100 people put in and there are 50 tags, only 50% will draw. thats a 50% draw odds. If there is a point system you get 1 shot and the 50 tags the first year you put in. If you don't draw you get a point. then year 2 if you don't draw you get a 2nd point, and so forth. If you have 5 years of putting in, and 5 points, your name goes in the pool 5 times. If its the points squared your name goes in 25 times. if there is 1 tag and 2 people put in you have 5 points and they have one, It's WAY better odds of you drawing.

I'm sure there is a simpler explination but that is basically it.

Some states,Like Colorado, go by who ever has the highest points get drawn first. Someone else can explain that part.

 

[TLC]

Moosie, in simple terms that I understand, the points system is like the NBA lottery for draft position. the worse you stink, the better chance you have of getting the number one selection.

ringer, didn't know those numbers, but thanks. not sure what they were way back when when I lived out there in phoenix.

Matt, understand about the NR's deserving a chance to hunt in lets say montane, but not at the expense of a resident being able to hunt. just find it hard to believe that you might not be able to hunt in your own backyard, so to speak.

thanks guys. think I'll stay here and shoot these whitetails and come out there for the bigger stuff.

 

[danr55]

Moosie is close for Arizona, but it's a little different. For every application you submit, you are issued a number. These numbers are generated randomly. If you have 5 points, your application will get 5 random numbers. When all the applications are in, the number are organized in order from the lowest to the highest. Then the tags are awarded as the numbers come up. If there are 4 people on your application and they each have four points, then they are each assigned four random numbers. If one person gets numbers 16, 497, 12,065 and 41,367 and 16 is the lowest number for all of the applicants on your tag, then that's the point at which your application will be compared to the tags available. If there are four tags available, then your application will draw the tags. If there are only three tags available, then you will not. If you do not draw on the first choice, the system will automatically look at your second choice. If you do not draw on the second choice, you go back in line. The system will reveiw all of the applications for the first two choices then start a second round of picks for choices 3 thru 5.

As you can see, having four people on your application is both an advantage and a disadvantage. You get four sets of random numbers, but there must be four tags available for the hunt. It works for you and against you at the same time.

 

[Tom]

Basically, its a money maker management system for the west's "commercialization" of wildlife. More states there are making people buy a hunting liscense just to apply for a hunting tag, which they most likely won't get. They make thousands and thousands of dollars off of every elk a non-resident gets that way. You western guys correct me if I'm wrong please.

 

[BuzzH]

Danr,

You're wrong, you dont get 4 sets of numbers. The party gets a total of 4 numbers.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Basically, its a money maker management system for the west's "commercialization" of wildlife. More states there are making people buy a hunting liscense just to apply for a hunting tag, which they most likely won't get. They make thousands and thousands of dollars off of every elk a non-resident gets that way. You western guys correct me if I'm wrong please.

You are wong.


You are welcome for me correcting you.

Most F&G departments in the West are funded without taxpayer money from the General Fund. They have to manage the resource (including enforcement) with license/tag fees plus Fed money from excise taxes on sporting goods.

They don't make "thousands and thousands", they generally break even, as that is the fiscal goal.

 

[TLC]

Tom says it's all about making money, and jose corrected him. thought that like here, if you don't get what you are wanting, you get your money back? is that right or wrong? maybe keep an administration fee?

 

[Tom]

TLC, lets look up some state applications. Like MT, last time I checked the elk tag for a non-resident over the counter was like $1000+, I think it went up to $1200 while I was checking. A resident tag was less than $50.

AZ when I checked last year kept the $150 for a hunting liscense on each non-resident bull elk application when 7% of the applications were successfull and only 10%, I guess, that would be 0.7% of non-resident applications at over $150 each. So, out of 100 non-resident applications in AZ (100*$150=$15,000) they give a tag to 0.7. Its about 1/3 success for a bull elk in AZ I've read, so 3 non-res. have to get a tag before one gets a bull, on average.

For 3 to get a tag, 3/.7*100 have to apply. Well, that's more than 428 applications at more than $150 each, or more than $64,200 per bull elk. It doesn't even count the application fee or the tag fee.

Maybe we should check Idaho draw odds and success and fees, I think Jose is from Idaho, but he doesn't like to say that.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Tom,

In AZ the applicants get to keep the hunting license, they can still hunt even if they don't have an elk tag.

 

[mtmiller]

Tom says it's all about making money, and jose corrected him. thought that like here, if you don't get what you are wanting, you get your money back? is that right or wrong? maybe keep an administration fee?

TLC, there is some good experience on this board pertaining to "western" states hunting and the different systems. That being said, don't put a lot of stock in what Tom has to say about it. He may know Texas well, but the same can't be said for the states you are interested in. Good luck.

 

[ringer]

Tom-I heard there were nothing but queers and steers in Texas. Not implying you are queer but you definitely have the intelligence of a steer.

 

[Tom]

ringer, I corrected that info. as soon as I saw it. Here it is again, these cheer leaders are from Texas, ok?

Also, ringer, say I apply, I get the liscense that I get to keep, you got any advice on a good squirrel hunting unit in Arizona for me, since I probably won't get the elk tag? Do they keep squirrel records, maybe I should check them.

 

[mtmiller]

Does anyone else feel sorry for those poor ladies?

Sorry Tom, kicked back watching football and giving grief on-line.

 

[Moosie]

Tom, that picture never get's old. hump hump And I'm not being sarcastic. I hope you Bagged one of them no matter what the Tag fee was. hump hump