#Winning = more public land poop

[J_Woulfe]

Maybe so. Not sure how familiar you are with the Bob Marshall Wilderness, but it’s a pretty vast area. That ranger base station that you can get to in a vehicle is pretty remote in itself (Spotted Bear). Not to mention the amount of work conducted for weeks at a time from even more remote work stations. The scope and scale of work that area requires has conventionally been done by a large group of dedicated, generally younger people being paid well below the GS-special-“paper pusher” level.

Not sure where you work from in NM, but I’m guessing it’s nothing quite like the Bob.

Nothing as big as the Bob here, but we're closer than you think. Bob Marshall wilderness is just north of 1 million acres, while the Gila/Aldo Leopold complex is 768,000 acres. We also have the Pecos wilderness, which is quite a bit smaller at 223 000, but it's almost exclusively high alpine and has a lot of unique access issues associated with it. It's surrounded by Spanish Land Grants who don't really allow the FS access through their lands.

I understand the trail crews perform important work that isn't easily performed by higher-level employees with many more responsibilities, but the FS is seriously top-heavy and I'm tired of hearing the same complaints of our field crews being understaffed while our cubicles are 110% full. These recent Doge firings have definitely targeted the wrong people, but i never expected Elon and Trump to be intimately familiar or even interested with how western lands are managed.

 

[Beignet]

Nothing as big as the Bob here, but we're closer than you think. Bob Marshall wilderness is just north of 1 million acres, while the Gila/Aldo Leopold complex is 768,000 acres. We also have the Pecos wilderness, which is quite a bit smaller at 223 000, but it's almost exclusively high alpine and has a lot of unique access issues associated with it. It's surrounded by Spanish Land Grants who don't really allow the FS access through their lands.

I understand the trail crews perform important work that isn't easily performed by higher-level employees with many more responsibilities, but the FS is seriously top-heavy and I'm tired of hearing the same complaints of our field crews being understaffed while our cubicles are 110% full. These recent Doge firings have definitely targeted the wrong people, but i never expected Elon and Trump to be intimately familiar or even interested with how western lands are managed.

Both cool areas. I’d love to see more of the Gila someday. It’s certainly an important part of America’s shared wilderness legacy.

You seem to acknowledge that caring for these areas requires more than just middle management “having to go outside.” I don’t know how many “desk-jockeys” are assigned to Spotted Bear, but would you foresee those folks being able to cover their current duties in addition to those duties hitherto assigned to employees lower on the pay scale in an area as large as the Bob? Do you anticipate that middle management will be able to cover all their new responsibilities in some of NM’s larger roadless areas?

 

[Wrong Burgundy]

Looks like donnie backtracked....maybe he can hold off on the FAA firings too? I have a bunch of work trips coming up and would prefer not to have the plane fall out of the sky.....

Trump administration backtracks on eliminating thousands of national parks employees

Following a loud public outcry, and relentless media campaign from outdoors enthusiasts, the Trump administration has reversed course on a plan to eliminate thousands of seasonal workers at the National Park Service.

www.latimes.com

 

[J_Woulfe]

Both cool areas. I’d love to see more of the Gila someday. It’s certainly an important part of America’s shared wilderness legacy.

You seem to acknowledge that caring for these areas requires more than just middle management “having to go outside.” I don’t know how many “desk-jockeys” are assigned to Spotted Bear, but would you foresee those folks being able to cover their current duties in addition to those duties hitherto assigned to employees lower on the pay scale in an area as large as the Bob? Do you anticipate that middle management will be able to cover all their new responsibilities in some of NM’s larger roadless areas?

Even before the layoffs and seasonal hiring pause, NM had very few wilderness trail crews, and many forests relied on volunteers to perform trail maintenance. This was not ideal, as generally volunteers have far less capacity than designated trail crews, but volunteers aren't really affected by these actions.

In order to more accurately address these issues, you've got to understand the seasonal hiring pause for the Forest Service was announced in September 2024, before the election had even happened. It was caused by the Forest Service's internal budget mismanagement and top-heavy bloat. This seasonal hiring pause affects trail crews, timber markers, weed sprayers, river rangers, etc. The BLM didn't have this issue, and the NPS didn't have this issue. Trumps government-wide hiring pause affected those agencies, but it looks like he already backtracked and is allowing NPS to hire seasonal employees. Maybe he will do the same with BLM, but the Forest Service continues to have internal budget mismanagement and will need to be restructured or need a large budget increase from congress to fix this.

As to how well this work is going to be implemented in Summer of 25, it will be different across the board. In every forest, programs who have relied on seasonal crews in the recent past will be greatly affected and will have to figure out different ways of getting work accomplished. This could be volunteers, contractors, or neglecting administrative priorities in favor of field work. Other programs which have relied on permanent employees, or already have working relationships with volunteers will be much less affected.

Finally, I'll address the layoffs. These have been carried out in a very disrespectful way, and will make addressing the issues mentioned before more difficult. As you may have heard, all probationary employees have been terminated. Some of these employees were new hires, but many have been career employees who recently got promoted into a different job series. The Forests in NM had lost 19%-26% of their employees as of Tuesday, and more got fired this week too. This will slow a lot down too, but it may also have addressed the internal issues in the FS which initially caused the seasonal hiring pause.

 

[BuzzH]

Even before the layoffs and seasonal hiring pause, NM had very few wilderness trail crews, and many forests relied on volunteers to perform trail maintenance. This was not ideal, as generally volunteers have far less capacity than designated trail crews, but volunteers aren't really affected by these actions.

In order to more accurately address these issues, you've got to understand the seasonal hiring pause for the Forest Service was announced in September 2024, before the election had even happened. It was caused by the Forest Service's internal budget mismanagement and top-heavy bloat. This seasonal hiring pause affects trail crews, timber markers, weed sprayers, river rangers, etc. The BLM didn't have this issue, and the NPS didn't have this issue. Trumps government-wide hiring pause affected those agencies, but it looks like he already backtracked and is allowing NPS to hire seasonal employees. Maybe he will do the same with BLM, but the Forest Service continues to have internal budget mismanagement.

As to how well this work is going to be implemented in Summer of 25, it will be different across the board. In every forest, programs who have relied on seasonal crews in the recent past will be greatly affected and will have to figure out different ways of getting work accomplished. This could be volunteers, contractors, or neglecting administrative priorities in favor of field work. Other programs which have relied on permanent employees, or already have working relationships with volunteers will be much less affected.

Finally, I'll address the layoffs. These have been carried out in a pretty disrespectful way, and will make addressing the issues mentioned before more difficult. As you may have heard, all probationary employees have been terminated. Some of these employees were new hires, but many have been career employees who recently got promoted into a different job series. The Forests in NM had lost 19%-26% of their employees as of Tuesday, and more got fired this week too. This will slow a lot down too, but it may also have addressed the internal issues in the FS which initially caused the seasonal hiring pause.

That's a great post, too bad a lot of it isn't even close to factual.

I'm pretty aware of the budget issues, and its not mismanagement or top-heavy bloat that caused it.

 

[Beignet]

Even before the layoffs and seasonal hiring pause, NM had very few wilderness trail crews, and many forests relied on volunteers to perform trail maintenance. This was not ideal, as generally volunteers have far less capacity than designated trail crews, but volunteers aren't really affected by these actions.

In order to more accurately address these issues, you've got to understand the seasonal hiring pause for the Forest Service was announced in September 2024, before the election had even happened. It was caused by the Forest Service's internal budget mismanagement and top-heavy bloat. This seasonal hiring pause affects trail crews, timber markers, weed sprayers, river rangers, etc. The BLM didn't have this issue, and the NPS didn't have this issue. Trumps government-wide hiring pause affected those agencies, but it looks like he already backtracked and is allowing NPS to hire seasonal employees. Maybe he will do the same with BLM, but the Forest Service continues to have internal budget mismanagement and will need to be restructured or need a large budget increase from congress to fix this.

As to how well this work is going to be implemented in Summer of 25, it will be different across the board. In every forest, programs who have relied on seasonal crews in the recent past will be greatly affected and will have to figure out different ways of getting work accomplished. This could be volunteers, contractors, or neglecting administrative priorities in favor of field work. Other programs which have relied on permanent employees, or already have working relationships with volunteers will be much less affected.

Finally, I'll address the layoffs. These have been carried out in a very disrespectful way, and will make addressing the issues mentioned before more difficult. As you may have heard, all probationary employees have been terminated. Some of these employees were new hires, but many have been career employees who recently got promoted into a different job series. The Forests in NM had lost 19%-26% of their employees as of Tuesday, and more got fired this week too. This will slow a lot down too, but it may also have addressed the internal issues in the FS which initially caused the seasonal hiring pause.

I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to type this out. It’s a far better explanation of some FS difficulties than a quick nock at middle management.

I’d been concerned that trail crews would’ve already been stretched thin with this season because of the seasonal hire pause. Seems like some RD’s don’t have the permanent staff to do the formerly seasonal work, more so since they’ve had to fire probationary staff.

Montana & the Bob have some volunteer and non FS orgs that do trail work as well. Though I’m unsure if orgs like the Bob Marshall Wilderness Foundation and Montana Conservation Corps were at all reliant upon federal grants. I do know the area is large enough that it makes straight-up volunteering difficult for those with employment and family obligations, as the hitches typically last for many days.

 

[SAJ-99]

Even before the layoffs and seasonal hiring pause, NM had very few wilderness trail crews, and many forests relied on volunteers to perform trail maintenance. This was not ideal, as generally volunteers have far less capacity than designated trail crews, but volunteers aren't really affected by these actions.

In order to more accurately address these issues, you've got to understand the seasonal hiring pause for the Forest Service was announced in September 2024, before the election had even happened. It was caused by the Forest Service's internal budget mismanagement and top-heavy bloat. This seasonal hiring pause affects trail crews, timber markers, weed sprayers, river rangers, etc. The BLM didn't have this issue, and the NPS didn't have this issue. Trumps government-wide hiring pause affected those agencies, but it looks like he already backtracked and is allowing NPS to hire seasonal employees. Maybe he will do the same with BLM, but the Forest Service continues to have internal budget mismanagement and will need to be restructured or need a large budget increase from congress to fix this.

As to how well this work is going to be implemented in Summer of 25, it will be different across the board. In every forest, programs who have relied on seasonal crews in the recent past will be greatly affected and will have to figure out different ways of getting work accomplished. This could be volunteers, contractors, or neglecting administrative priorities in favor of field work. Other programs which have relied on permanent employees, or already have working relationships with volunteers will be much less affected.

Finally, I'll address the layoffs. These have been carried out in a very disrespectful way, and will make addressing the issues mentioned before more difficult. As you may have heard, all probationary employees have been terminated. Some of these employees were new hires, but many have been career employees who recently got promoted into a different job series. The Forests in NM had lost 19%-26% of their employees as of Tuesday, and more got fired this week too. This will slow a lot down too, but it may also have addressed the internal issues in the FS which initially caused the seasonal hiring pause.

I have to ask if your view might be specific to your office and you might be over generalizing? I don't see "top heavy" when I look at this chart. Link to doc is attached which has other cuts at the data. It looks like the obvious is a decline in total employees and I would agree the ratios have changed, but it is explained by older employees staying and younger employees not being hired (which is what we see in a lot of other industries- Boomer bubble, need I say more?).

https://www.fs.usda.gov/nrs/pubs/jrnl/2022/nrs_2020_westphal_001.pdf

 

[Straight Arrow]

Montana & the Bob have some volunteer and non FS orgs that do trail work as well. Though I’m unsure if orgs like the Bob Marshall Wilderness Foundation and Montana Conservation Corps were at all reliant upon federal grants. I do know the area is large enough that it makes straight-up volunteering difficult for those with employment and family obligations, as the hitches typically last for many days.

Right after retirement, I volunteered to work for a week on a joint Continental Divide Trail and Bob Marshall Foundation project. We cleaned out campsites too close to the river, replaced water bars, and filled trail areas which had been eroded. However, the real trail work needed results from fires and wind, with trails clogged by multi layers of downed trees such as we encountered recently up Wrong Creek. Yeah, it was a wrong trail to backpack as the tree clogged trail was easily lost (camped off trail two nights, having lost the trail) and was actually dangerous hiking with backpacks climbing into, around, and over gnarly deadfall. It would have been impossible for a horse to get through there.

The point is that real tough, hard working trail crews with adequate compensation, tools, food, and other support are required to keep trails in the Bob and elsewhere cleared and safe. It is certain that this reduction in force with the USFS will close many trails ... maybe forever!

 

[J_Woulfe]

I have to ask if your view might be specific to your office and you might be over generalizing? I don't see "top heavy" when I look at this chart. Link to doc is attached which has other cuts at the data. It looks like the obvious is a decline in total employees and I would agree the ratios have changed, but it is explained by older employees staying and younger employees not being hired (which is what we see in a lot of other industries- Boomer bubble, need I say more?).

View attachment 361477

https://www.fs.usda.gov/nrs/pubs/jrnl/2022/nrs_2020_westphal_001.pdf

Thats an interesting chart, thanks for sharing. I see GS 13-15 positions increasing from 6.7% of the workforce to 9.1%. Each salary for a GS14 step 1 can pay for 7 seasonal GS4s.

 

[Beignet]

The point is that real tough, hard working trail crews with adequate compensation, tools, food, and other support are required to keep trails in the Bob and elsewhere cleared and safe. It is certain that this reduction in force with the USFS will close many trails ... maybe forever!

I’m a big fan of the BMWF and donate when I can. A good friend also worked on their crews for a few years. There’s no way that org is large enough to be solely responsible for clearing winter deadfall in the Bob. Heck, I don’t think there’d be enough manpower even if Montana Conservation Corps reassigned a big chunk of their force from elsewhere to tackle regular spring maintenance. The Backcountry Horsemen will probably continue to do what they can, but running packstrings to move the supplies required for general maintenance can’t be done for free forever.

The maintenance backlog in there was already pretty noticeable. I’m afraid you’re right that a ton of trails are going to be closed. Likely to have even more crowding on some of the main thoroughfares.

For what it’s worth, Lost Cabin Creek was my own personal whoops of a boondoggle in the Scapegoat. We considering building a cabin once we lost the trail in the deadfall.

 

[SAJ-99]

Thats an interesting chart, thanks for sharing. I see GS 13-15 positions increasing from 6.7% of the workforce to 9.1%. Each salary for a GS14 step 1 can pay for 7 seasonal GS4s.

"Too many chiefs, not enough indians" was a complaint Columbus documented shortly after he landed. But i'm not sure the recent action did anything to address that concern either.

 

[BuzzH]

Thats an interesting chart, thanks for sharing. I see GS 13-15 positions increasing from 6.7% of the workforce to 9.1%. Each salary for a GS14 step 1 can pay for 7 seasonal GS4s.

I can say with 100% certainty, the GS12-15's are NOT increasing on RD's, RO's, Labs, etc. I bet way more than half is D.C. related.

There aren't many people on the average NF that are over 12's, some, sure, but not many.

Also, good luck getting any better help than high school kids for a GS-4 wage...you're not even coming close to competing with fast food joints, Walmart, etc.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Each salary for a GS14 step 1 can pay for 7 seasonal GS4s.

So then explain why it is that the USFS is getting rid of the GS4 crosscut sawyers for better trail clearing efficiency!!!

 

[BuzzH]

As Longtime Seasonal Workers Emerge as Casualties of Mass Firings, Stakeholders Warn of Dire Consequences to Public Lands - Flathead Beacon

In many cases, laid-off seasonal employees had worked for the U.S. Forest Service for years or even decades — cleaning campgrounds and clearing trails, supporting firefighters and securing funds for wildfire mitigation — but their probationary clocks were reset last year during an agency-wide...

flatheadbeacon.com

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Looks like donnie backtracked....maybe he can hold off on the FAA firings too? I have a bunch of work trips coming up and would prefer not to have the plane fall out of the sky.....

Trump administration backtracks on eliminating thousands of national parks employees

Following a loud public outcry, and relentless media campaign from outdoors enthusiasts, the Trump administration has reversed course on a plan to eliminate thousands of seasonal workers at the National Park Service.

www.latimes.com

This is not backtracking. Seasonals were exempted in the original hiring freeze EO. This does nothing to bring back all the probationary period employees who were illegally fired a week ago.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

So then explain why it is that the USFS is getting rid of the GS4 crosscut sawyers for better trail clearing efficiency!!!

As I've said before, there was room for gains in efficiency and savings, but this approach was completely backwards. An angry, petulant swipe at the defenseless low hanging fruit.

 

[Pucky Freak]

This was my text conversation in 2022 about Iowa.

“Efficiency” in Trumpism means “hamstringing”. The whole point of taking a sledgehammer to agencies is to cripple them, which builds a future case for sector privatization.

The Iowa tax cuts were projected to lead to a major budget shortfall. Fast forward 3 years, and we are looking to raise our sales tax to make up the difference. But by 2010 State law, a sales tax increase is already earmarked to form the Iowa Natural Resources and Outdoor Recreation Trust Fund, which has support of 71% of Iowans in the latest poll.

“Solution” from Republicans? Repeal the trust fund, in direct opposition to the will of their own constituents.

Business-minded Republicans are not ignorant of what it takes to make government run efficiently: cut waste with a scalpel. That takes time and effort, which can get bogged down in the political process.

Republicans perceive that meaningful agency reform is impractical, so their chosen alternative is to privatize it. I might even entertain privatization ideas, but not when the elected representatives’ strategy to do so is entirely dishonest and disingenuous.

 

[elkduds]

I have. Plus picked up, literally 3-4 tons of trash off public lands near Laramie. Removed fencing on some places, installed buck and rail fencing in others. Spent a day cutting poles/ rails for another project. Installed signs and gates for a couple days. Probably cleared 50-60 miles of trails as a volunteer as well. Other stuff as well.

You?

I don't think it's appropriate to ask volunteers to mark timber, cruise timber, mark cutting units, or even clear 1000+ miles of trails that many districts have.

Paid staff is an absolute necessity.

I always improve public trails and grounds when there. Doesn't everyone?

 

[elkduds]

A very thoughtful and insightful take. I would however, like to dig into a couple of things. On "using a sledge hammer when a scalpel would do". A valid point, however, one must ponder that if decades of attempts with a scalpel have been largely ineffective, a sledge hammer might be what is needed. Will it hurt? Yup. Can we get through it and make things better? I believe so. Next, on this being a potential lost opportunity. I'm not convinced that's truly the case. Let's explore some grand hypotheticals for a second. And I'll reiterate before I get poo pooed. This is just a hypothetical. If our model of conservation is state based, is it unreasonable to use federal cuts as an opportunity for more state involvement in management? If Congress refuses to give federal agencies the tools and freedom to effectively manage our public lands, is it unreasonable to push for more of those responsibilities to be delegated to the states? Mind you I'm not talking about ownership of federal lands, but rather the management duties thereof. If federal personnel are being cut, is it unreasonable for states to hire those same people? Finally, if we want to influence those in charge of management of our public lands, is it more feasible to be effective at the state level or federal level? I agree, you can't cut employees and programs that are essential for better land management and then bitch about there not being better management. However, if said essentials continue to be ineffective, are they still essential? Or is it perhaps an opportunity to try something different. Anyway, thanks for digging into this and being an outspoken public lands advocate.

Looked up synonyms for scalpel, did not see underenforcement, low staffing due to decades of funding cuts to FS/BLM.

 

[elkduds]

Yeah 60 year olds clearing trail. A heart attack waiting to happen.

Hey, I'm 66 and built trails in my 20s.

And sadly, you are correct.