Gastro Gnome - Eat Better Wherever

Wilks brothers true colors are shining through.....

pointer, I do totally understand about entering into agreement with Gov. agency and the need to do things by the book. The whole question is, do they hold title to the land on which the fence is built? If they do, we sportsmen have to suck it up and leave them be. If they have indeed run over their property line onto public, then they have opened themselves up to all kinds of problems. Someone please show me a law that say's if you own a piece of land adjoining BLM you can't fence it in any fashion you see fit. (as long as the fence is on your property.

I don't see anyone stating that a private landowner is restricted from doing anything they want on their own private land, so long as it is in compliance with the law. I don't care what they do on their private land, so long as they are in compliance with all laws and all agreements they have entered into for grazing allotments with the BLM.

If the LE show up and they find everything is fine, not much can be done about it. We carry on and continue to hunt it as we always have, knowing the hunting will be impacted by the actions on private land. It would not be the first time public hunting is impacted by actions on private land.

I think the bigger issue, and one worth noting, is the public relations game that the Wilks are/have employed. They made an offer. An offer is usually a starting point. The first offer was considered inappropriate and not accepted. They asked the BLM, a public agency, to entertain their offer. That is a lot different proposition than two private parties entering into a discussion.

Rather than come back with another offer, the decision was made to put up their own website promoting the virtues of what they want to exchange. Nothing wrong with that.

Where the rub comes is the actions/reactions as quick as things start going a little south. This kind of demonstration is made by them for purposes of garnering attention to the issue. Whether it is the kind of attention they want, I'm not sure, but they had to know it would attract attention.

It was obvious to me that whoever was advising them on the original proposal did not provide them a very good service. Whoever gave them that advice was poorly informed of the facts related to the properties in question, access to those properties, historic use of those properties, and the current climate of public hunting access in Montana. Their adviser either did not understand those issues, or just did a terrible job in crafting the proposal.

Now, rather than accepting the reality of the situation and trying to find a workable solution, this is the response. That is fine. It is their land, they can do as they damn well please.

But, if this is how they intend to respond when things don't go exactly as they want, they will find that getting things done in Montana just got a lot harder than it was before. Just a fact of how it works.

And, I know they/their people read this blog, so nothing I say here is something I wouldn't if they were sitting at the table with me.

We've all been involved in proposed deals that had some struggles and challenges. It took a some work and some discussion/negotiation on all sides to get things accomplished. That is the dynamics you accept when you want something held by the public. If you cannot accept the rules laid out for such exchanges and you cannot accept that dealing with the public results in a slow and frustrating process, then maybe you should not propose an exchange to start with.

Remember, this was them proposing something to the BLM. When you do that, you come to the table with the understanding that you are subjecting yourself to the public process that agencies are required to follow.

When people ask for that, then respond this way when they do not get their wishes granted, I think that is worthy of discussion among hunters on this forum and in the media. It is a case that everyone is watching to see how it unfolds.

None of that diminishes the private property rights the Wilks hold. They can do as they damn well please. Yet, they are the ones who asked the BLM to entertain an offer, in doing so, putting themselves in the position of having to deal in the spotlight of public interest.

Their response and actions are watched very closely, as evidenced by this thread and the huge flurry of emails I received on the topic while I was gone. None of this happens in a vacuum. And thank goodness for that.

The beauty of America is the rights and liberties we have, including the private property rights protected by the 5th Amendment. These landowners are well within their rights to do as they please, on any property they own.

Sometimes when people exercise their rights, they do so in a manner that gives others a better perspective of who they really are and the character they display when things don't go as one would like. To me, that response is what is worthy of noting and discussing on this forum.

Carry on ......
 
But Kat, I don't think they are preventing passage or transit over or through public lands...

Do you know if a permit is required to put a road on private land?
 
I think everyone is missing the point here, look at the jobs they have created by these activities.

Trailer parking specialist
Helicopter pilot
Heavy equipment machinery operator
Fence builders
Monitors of discussions on the internet

Not to mention the stimulus to the economy for fuel, and fence building supplies. Let's look for silver linings here. Their effort is an employment act for Fergus County...let's look for silver linings. ;)
 
But Kat, I don't think they are preventing passage or transit over or through public lands...

Do you know if a permit is required to put a road on private land?

That five strand fence certainly restricts wildlife passage back and forth from the BLM land and that is listed in the passage as a possible violation in case you didn't read it thoroughly.
 
That five strand fence certainly restricts wildlife passage back and forth from the BLM land and that is listed in the passage as a possible violation in case you didn't read it thoroughly.
Oh, I was reading it as preventing the public from passage.
 
Randy, again thanks for your insight on this matter. I hope your film crew documents was has been done to public property. Wingman keep your head up and maybe that bull and you will cross paths again in a better way for you. Thanks to all for keeping us the public informed of the actions of the Wilkes doings around our land!
 
Back East, there are a ton of us OYOA members glued to this as closely as watching the Debbie Does Dallas bloopers around a campfire. Hoot's, Boo's, and OH F'ck's all inclusive.

Keep up the fight and Never back down for what is our right.
 
Rob, that wildlife passage was part of the more recent Wyoming Red Rim case (linked the articles at the top of page 6 I believe), using UIA as the basis for the fencing case with the pronghorn antelope, which the judge ruled against the landowner with the fencing.
 
Katqanna, will you please address the second line of the document that you keep referencing? It states that said document "identifies standards and provides guidance related specifically to construction of fences ON lands managed by the BLM." Please refer me to where it states that it applies to fences built by private entities on private property. This fence is no different than many other fences in Montana. As much I hate it, it's not preventing most animals from moving from one side to the other. Yes, it will probably making calling a bull over from private more difficult and there will be some entanglement issues, but I think it's a bit of a stretch calling it a barrier. I think the only sticking point is the height of the lowest strand of wire. As for all the other stuff going on...
 
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With a GPS accuracy of about 10 feet for those Garmins it looks like the fence is off by almost 100 yards. That is a lot of country to give up especially when you are trying to hunt elk along the property lines.
 
Not that this will solve much, but...

MCA 45-8-115. Illegal posting of state and federal land.
(1) A person commits the offense of illegal posting of state or federal land if, without authorization, he knowingly posts land that is under the ownership or control of the state or federal government to restrict access or use of state or federal land. (2) A person convicted of illegal posting of state or federal land shall be fined an amount not to exceed $500 or be imprisoned in the county jail for a term not to exceed 6 months, or both.
 
its cheaper to post it illegally and get caught and fined than trespass on an unmarked piece and get fined,,,
 
I actually flew over some of this land a month ago, not realizing it was the same area that was proposed for BLM land swap. I was trying to figure out what was going on with the dozer trails all over the place. Definitely some nice looking elk there. To me it seems like a pretty childish move for not getting what you wanted.
 
Katqanna, will you please address the second line of the document that you keep referencing? It states that said document "identifies standards and provides guidance related specifically to construction of fences ON lands managed by the BLM." Please refer me to where it states that it applies to fences built by private entities on private property. This fence is no different than many other fences in Montana. As much I hate it, it's not preventing most animals from moving from one side to the other. Yes, it will probably making calling a bull over from private more difficult and there will be some entanglement issues, but I think it's a bit of a stretch calling it a barrier. I think the only sticking point is the height of the lowest strand of wire. As for all the other stuff going on...

Dunc, on PDF page 13 (II-7 of the BLM handbook numbering) of the BLM Handbook ,
Chapter 2, 8. Fences Along Public-Private and Public-State Land Boundaries. The responsibility to install fencing along the boundary between Federal public lands and lands owned by non-Federal entities (i.e., State, local, private) generally rests with the non-Federal landowners...Paragraph 2 - The Unlawful Inclosures Act of 1885 (UIA), as amended, is applicable to fencing constructed along or adjacent to public lands. This law states, in part, that "No person, by force, threats, intimidation, or by any fencing or enclosing, or other unlawful means...shall prevent or obstruct free passage or transit over or through the public lands..." The courts have ruled that the UIA guarantees access to public lands for all lawful purposes and that wildlife access to and use of Federal lands is a legitimate use.

So even though the fence is on private land, they cannot obstruct the passage of people or wildlife to the public lands. On the next page, PDF page 14 (II-8) sub points, paragraph 3, concerning the Wyoming Red Rim case (United States v. Lawrence - a private landowner), the opening sentence states, "In summary, the 'Red Rim' fence decision (United States v. Lawrence) establishes that legal action by be taken against parties who construct fencing on private lands that could enclose or block access by wildlife to public (Federal) lands."

I just had Staples print and bind the handbook to have a hard copy with me. I was talking with Jack Jones (one of the Butte guys involved in the Turner fence case) last night. I had seen a 2002 Montana Standard article quoting him concerning the BLM Handbook. Searched for a couple hours before I took off for the commissioners work group meeting. It took a couple more hours of digging through additional search phrases before I found it and not on the BLM site. When I spoke with Jack, he said that it was a fluke that he found it many years ago. It was referenced in an old book in one of his range management classes, but no one spoke about the fencing laws involving public lands. He went to BLM to get a copy of the Handbook and they said they didnt know what he was talking about. He eventually got a hold of a copy somewhere else, but feels if more people knew what was in the law, especially from the public hunter perspective, we could be fighting back and protecting our wildlife and Public Lands better. I told him how much I appreciated all their work before and I would make sure to get this to the public.

The thing is, I am wondering if this is applicable to Forest Service lands as well, because I saw a FS EIS when I was searching that had an appendix page referencing the BLM Handbook and showed the fencing diagram from page 41. The above quotes from the manual state Federal Public Lands, not just BLM lands. I am going to look into it.
 
Wingman, I checked on my huntonxmaps and it shows not exactly your numbers but it's definitely well into BLM North east corner if this helps.
 

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