Wildife Task force 90-10, etc.

[BuzzH]

Costs to hunt as a NR have not increased that much when you compare license fees with mean annual income.

In 1979, the year I started hunting in Montana, a NR big-game combo was $226...mean income $16,533 so about 1.4% of the average income to buy a NR license.

In 2023 the price of the same combo license is $1108...mean income of $54,132 so right at 2% of the average income to buy a NR license.

Compare those same percentages of average income with rent, new vehicles, clothes, food, house costs, etc.

Your problem isn't the price of the NR license in 2023, the problem is wages have NOT kept up with the costs of other basic living expenses.

If you want to secure future involvement and keep hunting affordable, then demand that wages keep up with inflation, COL, etc.

That's what solves the problem, not demanding that tag fees stay at 1979 levels.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Costs to hunt as a NR have not increased that much when you compare license fees with mean annual income.

In 1979, the year I started hunting in Montana, a NR big-game combo was $226...mean income $16,533 so about 1.4% of the average income to buy a NR license.

In 2023 the price of the same combo license is $1108...mean income of $54,132 so right at 2% of the average income to buy a NR license.

Compare those same percentages of average income with rent, new vehicles, clothes, food, house costs, etc.

Your problem isn't the price of the NR license in 2023, the problem is wages have NOT kept up with the costs of other basic living expenses.

If you want to secure future involvement and keep hunting affordable, then demand that wages keep up with inflation, COL, etc.

That's what solves the problem, not demanding that tag fees stay at 1979 levels.

1.4% is dramatically smaller than 2%.

Combos are adjusted for inflation $200 more than they were in 1979.

What are those resident tags at compared to inflation?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Your problem isn't the price of the NR license in 2023, the problem is wages have NOT kept up with the costs of other basic living expenses.

If you want to secure future involvement and keep hunting affordable, then demand that wages keep up with inflation, COL, etc.

That's what solves the problem, not demanding that tag fees stay at 1979 levels.

I agree with you about wages not increasing, but that just isn't the point here the only tool being used is price. So if wages went up we would just be looking at a larger price increase.

If you make tags more expensive you are benefiting the rich over the middle class.

If you create point systems you are benefiting those in the system at inception over everyone else.

It's all just "I don't want to share" masquerading as some sort of logical fallacy.

Also just to clarify, I'm fine with raising prices for funding an agency, I take issue with the idea it's a good fix to point creep.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I'm not trying to be a dick here, hear me out. I have given public comment strongly in favor of maintaining regular guy/gal, DIY opportunity with plenty of flack from fellow residents (though not on here to be clear). However, when did hunting out of state shift from a unique opportunity to an expectation?

I was probably 20 years old before I personally knew a single person who hunted in a different state than they lived in; and I knew a lot of hunting families growing up, many more than I do now. It feels like there has been dramatic drift in what folks expect to be able to do. Entitlement sounds harsh, but I'm not sure what else you call it. Again, I'm in favor of maintaining NR opportunity and would be glad to pay more for my resident tags. Just an observation that seems to be part of the issue from my perspective.

If contentment is a function of expectations and reality, I don't think reality is the only thing that's changed...

 

[Rhcuam]

If it doesn’t make it through the legislation this year, it will sooner than later.
The big push to make western hunting the cool thing to do is finally coming home to roost. So either get your checkbooks out or credit cards more than likely. Or stop inviting every Tom, Dick and Harry to head out west and chase adventure.
Eventually, the increase in cost and the difficulty in drawing tags is going to start separating the wheat from the chaff. Those who can afford to go in those who cannot.

 

[Rhcuam]

I'm not trying to be a dick here, hear me out. I have given public comment strongly in favor of maintaining regular guy/gal, DIY opportunity with plenty of flack from fellow residents (though not on here to be clear). However, when did hunting out of state shift from a unique opportunity to an expectation?

I was probably 20 years old before I personally knew a single person who hunted in a different state than they lived in; and I knew a lot of hunting families growing up, many more than I do now. It feels like there has been dramatic drift in what folks expect to be able to do. Entitlement sounds harsh, but I'm not sure what else you call it. Again, I'm in favor of maintaining NR opportunity and would be glad to pay more for my resident tags. Just an observation that seems to be part of the issue from my perspective.

If contentment is a function of expectations and reality, I don't think reality is the only thing that's changed...

If I had to take a guess, it was when every guy with a YouTube channel and a camera decided to start making money showing off his out-of-state hunting adventures. Hunting has become an industry.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Just because I don't like having it broke off in my @ss, doesn't mean I'm an entitled crybaby.

 

[TOGIE]

I'm not trying to be a dick here, hear me out. I have given public comment strongly in favor of maintaining regular guy/gal, DIY opportunity with plenty of flack from fellow residents (though not on here to be clear). However, when did hunting out of state shift from a unique opportunity to an expectation?

I was probably 20 years old before I personally knew a single person who hunted in a different state than they lived in; and I knew a lot of hunting families growing up, many more than I do now. It feels like there has been dramatic drift in what folks expect to be able to do. Entitlement sounds harsh, but I'm not sure what else you call it. Again, I'm in favor of maintaining NR opportunity and would be glad to pay more for my resident tags. Just an observation that seems to be part of the issue from my perspective.

If contentment is a function of expectations and reality, I don't think reality is the only thing that's changed...

I mean, I live in a western state too with a commission that is starting to look seriously at things that might really upend the current NR status quo.

many of the NR comments are very harsh, very ignorant, and often very derisive towards R's. entitlement is literally the only word to describe it.

so i get it, 100%. which is why entitlement is that last thing i'm trying to convery.

simply saying "dang, that sucks. that starts to push things out of my envelope of affordability" is really neither here nor there in that context. just observing new realities. comments from within wyoming in response to such a comment can come off extremely entitled as well.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Just because I don't like having it broke off in my @ss, doesn't mean I'm an entitled crybaby.

I'm all for calling BS, on what is almost always WYOGA or MOGA trying by hook or crook to get what they want.

 

[BuzzH]

1.4% is dramatically smaller than 2%.

Combos are adjusted for inflation $200 more than they were in 1979.

What are those resident tags at compared to inflation?

Probably not as dramatic as you believe, because I don't believe many NR's in 1979 that were hunting out of state were making $16K a year.

The same as I don't believe that most people hunting as NR's today are those making $54k a year.

Would be interesting to look at the average income of those hunting MT as NR's in 1979, what they made for wages, compared to now.

I'm betting really, really, really similar.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Probably not as dramatic as you believe, because I don't believe many NR's in 1979 that were hunting out of state were making $16K a year.

1.4/2 = .7 or 70%


Average inflation is .038 or 3.8%

So math wise... big difference.

Owning 1.4% of Apple versus 2% of apple...

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I mean, I live in a western state too with a commission that is starting to look seriously at things that might really upend the current NR status quo.

many of the NR comments are very harsh, very ignorant, and often very derisive towards R's. entitlement is literally the only word to describe it.

so i get it, 100%. which is why entitlement is that last thing i'm trying to convery.

simply saying "dang, that sucks. that starts to push things out of my envelope of affordability" is really neither here nor there in that context. just observing new realities. comments from within wyoming in response to such a comment can be equally entitled.

I don't take your comments specifically to be whiny. Just making the point that expectations have probably changed as fast or faster than the resource, or cost to participate. Mine have too I'm sure, it's mostly subconscious unless I think back to the hunting world I grew up in not that long ago.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

You are all whiny!

Come on, its not that big of a deal. Hunt while you can, you're going to run out of health before you run out of money.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I'll even call myself out here...I moved to WY around the time the MT NR Native license came out. At the time it was half price, and I could afford it, so I did it. I had no idea at the time how peculiar and fairly ridiculous that program is. Just didn't know what I didn't know.

The price went up, and in 2015 I said: "The cost-benefit lines cross at a different $$ value for everyone. Getting back to MT to hunt with my family is very valuable to me, but at a certain price it's just too hard to justify in my budget. That's fine, and that's how it works for everybody else."

Thankfully the mule deer hunting in MT sucks so bad now that I don't even have to consider spending the money

 

[BuzzH]

1.4% is dramatically smaller than 2%.

Combos are adjusted for inflation $200 more than they were in 1979.

What are those resident tags at compared to inflation?

Probably not as dramatic as you believe, because I don't believe many NR's in 1979 that were hunting out of state were making $16K a year.

The same as I don't believe that most people hunting as NR's today are those making $54k a year.

Would be interesting to look at the average income of those hunting MT as NR's in 1979, what they made for wages, compared to now.

I'm betting really, really, really similar.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Probably not as dramatic as you believe, because I don't believe many NR's in 1979 that were hunting out of state were making $16K a year.

The same as I don't believe that most people hunting as NR's today are those making $54k a year.

Would be interesting to look at the average income of those hunting MT as NR's in 1979, what they made for wages, compared to now.

I'm betting really, really, really similar.

Serves me right trying to make a math joke I guess...

 

[Treeshark]

Thankfully the mule deer hunting in MT sucks so bad now that I don't even have to consider spending the money

Just remember this to make yourself feel better, Snowy- matter how bad mule deer hunting gets in Montana (insert whatever other western state), it will always be far better than the mule deer hunting in the Midwest/out East!

 

[Deleted member 18333]

I'll even call myself out here...I moved to WY around the time the MT NR Native license came out. At the time it was half price, and I could afford it, so I did it. I had no idea at the time how peculiar and fairly ridiculous that program is. Just didn't know what I didn't know.

The price went up, and in 2015 I said: "The cost-benefit lines cross at a different $$ value for everyone. Getting back to MT to hunt with my family is very valuable to me, but at a certain price it's just too hard to justify in my budget. That's fine, and that's how it works for everybody else."

Thankfully the mule deer hunting in MT sucks so bad now that I don't even have to consider spending the money

Using my own experience, if prices in Wyo were as proposed, in my 20's I would have gladly paid it. Didn't have a wife and kids, just me and the dog. In my 30's, no way I would pay these prices. Too many bills higher on my priority list. In my 40's, I would have paid but probably complained. Now that I am a month shy of 50, I would be happy to pay these prices.

In regards, to MT, I bailed on it a while back. Stopped buying deer/elk combo in 2002? Got a deer tag in 2017 but would not go back again.

 

[RobertD]

I'm not trying to be a dick here, hear me out. I have given public comment strongly in favor of maintaining regular guy/gal, DIY opportunity with plenty of flack from fellow residents (though not on here to be clear). However, when did hunting out of state shift from a unique opportunity to an expectation?

I was probably 20 years old before I personally knew a single person who hunted in a different state than they lived in; and I knew a lot of hunting families growing up, many more than I do now. It feels like there has been dramatic drift in what folks expect to be able to do. Entitlement sounds harsh, but I'm not sure what else you call it. Again, I'm in favor of maintaining NR opportunity and would be glad to pay more for my resident tags. Just an observation that seems to be part of the issue from my perspective.

If contentment is a function of expectations and reality, I don't think reality is the only thing that's changed...

Boy you really hit the nail on the head here IMO.

And not to sound like a know-it-all, but I can confidently say that the best remedy for frustration at declining opportunity in other states for me personally has been to put more time, thought and energy into hunting my own state/area, both on public and private land, for whitetails and other stuff too.

Sometime in the last few years when I was toiling away in the depths of hell grad school, I realized that my best bet is to focus on those local opportunities and shoot for one good out of state hunting trip a year, maybe two some day in the future. If I can tag out on one or two mule deer, antelope or elk over the next ten to twenty to thirty years, isn't that better than nothing? Especially when I can hunt whitetails and black bears for a few dollars a year, multiple times a year, every year during that time.

Not everyone has decent private land options back East and I know that complicates things and puts more pressure on certain Western states. But I look around and still see lots of opportunities in almost every part of the country that have escaped the gaze of the hunting influencer, at least for now.

So circling back to what you said, I think it's good for everyone to recognize what a privilege it is to even be able to just foray into strange country and kill a big game animal, and despite the implied claims of the influencer crowd, we don't all have to hunt 5 elk in 5 states each fall to be happy or satisfied with our hunting experience.

 

[Nick87]

I'm not trying to be a dick here, hear me out. I have given public comment strongly in favor of maintaining regular guy/gal, DIY opportunity with plenty of flack from fellow residents (though not on here to be clear). However, when did hunting out of state shift from a unique opportunity to an expectation?

I was probably 20 years old before I personally knew a single person who hunted in a different state than they lived in; and I knew a lot of hunting families growing up, many more than I do now. It feels like there has been dramatic drift in what folks expect to be able to do. Entitlement sounds harsh, but I'm not sure what else you call it. Again, I'm in favor of maintaining NR opportunity and would be glad to pay more for my resident tags. Just an observation that seems to be part of the issue from my perspective.

If contentment is a function of expectations and reality, I don't think reality is the only thing that's changed...

Yup like @RobertD said you hit the nail on the head here imo. Hardly anybody I knew growing up headed out of town to hunt and if they did it was somewhere close like 1 to 3 hours drive to deer camp where more than likely they had family or friends. Think of how many people you know now who are hunting out if state now and how frequently they are doing so. This hits home big for me right now as in the last 4 years I went from being a bachelor (money was in no way am obstacle of going hunting in or out of town time off work was the only barrier). Fast forward to 3 kids and a wife who works part time now and what was once taken for granted every year hunting is now fingers crossed I can pull it off financially and with no sick kids etc. No complaints just stating the differences. I think its another reason we keep reading about how hunter numbers are down but seems impossible when you look around. I think it's just that less hunters are doing way more of the hunting. Just another example of the middle class dying off with leasing and everything else now. Your either hunting deep pockets private or public. (I know most on here have been hunting public for generations in the west buy in other regions its not nearly as accesible). I'm very thankful to still have access to some private around here still not nearly what it once was but still very lucky.