Who And What Was George Custer?

[Doublecluck]

We must be on completely different pages and speaking past each other.

None of this is about labeling the country good or bad, but we need to call things for what they were and recognize their ramifications.

I’ll play along, who exactly is “we”?

 

[rwc101]

I’ll play along, who is “we”?

A lot of times these conversations get turned into "is America good or bad" because (fill in the blank) happened in the past. If you call the Indian Wars and subsequent treatment of Natives genocide the conversation gets redirected to whether the country (or this race or that race) is bad. My first comment was about the importance of focusing on the issue objectively and be honest about their lasting effects.

You responded "Why?" which gave me the initial impression that you were saying it is not important to look at the issue objectively, to call bad things that happened in the past bad because it wasn't happening now and we can't change the past. That would imply that you don't think history is important which I wouldn't accuse you of. Hence, we must be on different wavelengths.

Edit: and "We" meant society in the first comment. It meant you and I in the second.

 

[elkduds]

The illnesses that killed 90% of indigenous Americans were brought by Europeans, who developed immunity over centuries of living in dense populations. How much of that contagion was deliberately inflicted on Natives is unclear. However it is certain that smallpox and other diseases were deliberately inflicted in many instances, for the purpose of germ warfare/genocide.

"The only good Indian is a dead Indian." US Army General Philip Sheridan, 1969. Those words endorse genocide, as did the actions of militias, state and federal government in the 50 years that followed. Ask anyone from a tribe on the receiving end of those efforts if they view it as genocide. Consider how much history and knowledge of this land among the humans that first populated what is today the USA was erased.

Never forget that history is written by the victors. That is likely why we are destined to repeat the mistakes we have not learned from. Fortunately there are many books representing a range of perspectives on the Native vs Immigrant conflict that continues today. It has been well worth the effort to read the opposing perspectives, IMO

 

[Trap]

This one won't be open forever so let's try and make a discussion of it.

I agree that the 100 million number is pushing it. But being conservative, it's still likely in the neighborhood of 50 million, no?

I also don't think "genocide" is quite the right term. But then, what is instead?

WAR thats the term. just like all the wars that happened in Europe and other places hundreds of years ago

 

[Shangobango]

The same people that bleat "America isn't racist" can't bring themselves to call murdering indigenous people for land what for what it is.

It’s called conquering new territory.

No different than most any other nation, culture, people, or tribe, have done for millennia. That includes a lot of the Native American tribes.

Many groups of people have been “colonizers” throughout human history.

Doesn’t make it right or just. There were atrocities and needles hate.

It quite literally is what it is. And it is no different than the way people have behaved for thousands of years. People will likely continue to behave that way to some degree for the rest of human existence.

 

[rwc101]

It’s called conquering new territory.

No different than most any other nation, culture, people, or tribe, have done for millennia. That includes a lot of the Native American tribes.

Many groups of people have been “colonizers” throughout human history.

Doesn’t make it right or just. There were atrocities and needles hate.

It quite literally is what it is. And it is no different than the way people have behaved for thousands of years. People will likely continue to behave that way to some degree for the rest of human existence.

Rape, murder, genocide, theft. Lots of things happened in the past that were awful. I do not agree with shrugging our collective shoulders at them.

 

[Little Big Man MT Chris]

Never read anything about Custer or the history of that battle the only thing I really remember from growing up as a kid in the 70s and 80s was watching “ Little Big Man” with my dad In my early teens ,

 

[Shangobango]

Rape, murder, genocide, theft. Lots of things happened in the past that were awful. I do not agree with shrugging our collective shoulders at them.

Neither do I. We have to try and learn from the past.

I don’t think singling out one group that did it as any worse than the others, is particularly helpful either though.

Rape, murder, genocide, and theft are rape, murder, genocide, and theft no matter who is perpetrating them.

 

[rwc101]

Neither do I. We have to try and learn from the past.

I don’t think singling out one group that did it as any worse than the others, is particularly helpful either though.

Rape, murder, genocide, and theft are rape, murder, genocide, and theft no matter who is perpetrating them.

So why is it so hard to say the United States had a policy of genocide against Native Americans? Why minimize the role of genocide in the acquisition of territory?

And again, people are deflecting my statements into an issue of better/worse, right/wrong, innocent/guilt.

 

[Shangobango]

So why is it so hard to say the United States had a policy of genocide against Native Americans? Why minimize the role of genocide in the acquisition of territory?

And again, people are deflecting my statements into an issue of better/worse, right/wrong, innocent/guilt.

Who said the United States didn’t have a policy of genocide against Native Americans?

It certainly wasn’t me.

 

[rwc101]

Who said the United States didn’t have a policy of genocide against Native Americans?

It certainly wasn’t me.

Then I have absolutely no idea why you would respond that it was territory acquisition. I'm done.

 

[Shangobango]

Then I have absolutely no idea why you would respond that it was territory acquisition. I'm done.

Umm, because that is precisely what it was??!

Genocide and territory acquisition generally go hand in hand.

 

[WildWill]

Actually there isn’t any truth in any of that. Custer was issued Colt 45 SAA revolvers and Trapdoor Springfield carbines in 45-70. Spencers were what the Michigan Wolverines used in the Civil War.

The 7th were issued Spencer rifles during the time of the Washita battle. Custer's soldiers did indeed have the colt 45. and Trapdoor Springfield at the little bighorn. But Custer himself carried a Remington rolling block and a Webley RIC "Bulldog" in .442.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

So why is it so hard to say the United States had a policy of genocide against Native Americans? Why minimize the role of genocide in the acquisition of territory?

And again, people are deflecting my statements into an issue of better/worse, right/wrong, innocent/guilt.

Whys it so hard to say that those events helped shape the country to what it is today?

And I dont see anywhere where somebody said the United States and United States military weren't involved in genocide, elimination, murder, etc of the native Americans.

 

[RobertD]

Whys it so hard to say that those events helped shape the country to what it is today?

And I dont see anywhere where somebody said the United States and United States military weren't involved in genocide, elimination, murder, etc of the native Americans.

I don't see anywhere where somebody said those events didn't "help shape the country to what it is today," either. Definitely see a lot of comments arguing that it was "war" or "acquisition of territory" or "inevitable."

It seems like the conflict here is that @rwc101 used the G word and that has, erm, triggered some folks, for lack of a better word.

Beyond that I'm not entirely sure what the disagreement is about.

 

[Shangobango]

I don't see anywhere where somebody said those events didn't "help shape the country to what it is today," either. Definitely see a lot of comments arguing that it was "war" or "acquisition of territory" or "inevitable."

It seems like the conflict here is that @rwc101 used the G word and that has, erm, triggered some folks, for lack of a better word.

Beyond that I'm not entirely sure what the disagreement is about.

Yea I have no idea why I even posted at this point.

Hopefully one day I will just learn to keep my pie hole shut. Not my strong suite though so…

I wasn’t trying to ruffle any feathers or disparage anyone, for the record.

Back to pondering the future of hunting for this insensitive ass.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

I don't see anywhere where somebody said those events didn't "help shape the country to what it is today," either. Definitely see a lot of comments arguing that it was "war" or "acquisition of territory" or "inevitable."

It seems like the conflict here is that @rwc101 used the G word and that has, erm, triggered some folks, for lack of a better word.

Beyond that I'm not entirely sure what the disagreement is about.

The G word didn't bother me. The fact that he purposefully chose to only honor the Lakota and Cheyenne was a deliberate attempt to try and provoke others. To say otherwise is a lie. That comment was best left in his head.
All the people who participated in either side of that conflict deserve to be honored and both sides deserve to be scrutinized. Im sure a lot of good men died on the "winning side" who were just following orders those dead men had families to. The whole thing isn't as simple as good vs. evil.

 

[Nameless Range]

Three words - an indefinite article followed by one for each question in the title of this thread respectively and in order.

A human tragedy.

The messiness of this thread so far and the emotions it can elicit bring me to what Maclean wrote, as so much does. It’s no surprise he dedicated a fair amount of his life to trying to understand tragedy through Custer.

“If so, then let it be so—there’s a lot of tragedy in the universe that has missing parts and comes to no conclusion, including probably the tragedy that awaits you and me.”

 

[thomas89]

I had no idea the battlefield was historically preserved in this way.

Passed all sorts of signs off the highway for it, didn’t stop because I didn’t realize how well it was documented on site. Maybe next time!

 

[Little Big Man MT Chris]

This thread has got me interested in going to the site , if I’m ever in Montana.