What is the end game with tags?

[hank4elk]

I moved to a state with random draw,not main reason but a good one now.
As to the revenue issue in NM,raise the prices. Particularly on residents as they pay nothing in this day & age.
Be fair in the R/NR split. This is BS when you add in the outfitter welfare
Make true trophy hunts OIL or once every 3 yrs to apply if drawn.

I saw the writing on the wall 20+yrs or so ago when CA started it & UT/AZ went nuts.

 

[idelkslayer]

I agree that something must change but what happens if every state starting moving to the New Mexico model of random drawing with no points system. Then I wouldn't be able to apply for the 7 other states that I currently apply for. You know that they would all require you to front the money on the tags and that would get expensive in a hurry!! Elk tag, antelope tag, and mule deer tag would be around $1500 per state. It would cost me $12,000 to apply to all 8 states. I also think it make it harder to to plan our fall hunts with every state being random draws in different months.

This is what would be so great about every state doing random draw. Guys wouldn't be able to apply in a half dozen states. You will have to choose what you really want to apply for and skip the rest and this will eliminate some applicants. If there are fewer applicants then the odds of drawing a tag will improve.

 

[Gr8bawana]

I agree that something must change but what happens if every state starting moving to the New Mexico model of random drawing with no points system. Then I wouldn't be able to apply for the 7 other states that I currently apply for. You know that they would all require you to front the money on the tags and that would get expensive in a hurry!! Elk tag, antelope tag, and mule deer tag would be around $1500 per state. It would cost me $12,000 to apply to all 8 states. I also think it make it harder to to plan our fall hunts with every state being random draws in different months.

This is what would be so great about every state doing random draw. Guys wouldn't be able to apply in a half dozen states. You will have to choose what you really want to apply for and skip the rest and this will eliminate some applicants. If there are fewer applicants then the odds of drawing a tag will improve.

So then only rich people who could afford to pay up front for all those tags would be able to apply and draw all the tags. Makes sense to me.

 

[rideold]

Seems to me (and I'm new to this and hold 1 elk point and 1 deer point) that if states would just cap point accrual the problem would be solved. If you knew that you can only accrue 5 or 10 points for a species and after that you can't get any more you'd use them as soon as you got to the 5 or 10 point limit. Kind of like loosing vacation days if you hit the maximum (not a problem I've ever had or ever will have). The folks with tons of points would be capped where they are and attrition would take care of things from there in a few years.

 

[Zim]

I agree that something must change but what happens if every state starting moving to the New Mexico model of random drawing with no points system. Then I wouldn't be able to apply for the 7 other states that I currently apply for. You know that they would all require you to front the money on the tags and that would get expensive in a hurry!! Elk tag, antelope tag, and mule deer tag would be around $1500 per state. It would cost me $12,000 to apply to all 8 states. I also think it make it harder to to plan our fall hunts with every state being random draws in different months.

States could do random lotteries without requiring up front money like NM does. But that got me thinking, is there some kind of legal limit as to how much a state can screw point holders? Can they just decide one day to make all preference points they sold previously bonus points? Can they just come out with some announcement...........Hey we are just going to dissolve all these point things we've been selling for the last 25 years. They are now worth zero. But oh ya we are not going to be reimbursing you guys. Any attorneys out there have any thoughts?

 

[The Hedgehog]

Snivel snivel.

 

[Zim]

Greenhorn - I asked a very valid question. This thread is good and productive. If you are some teenager please get off mom's computer and go do your homework.

While completing applications for the last 20+ years, back to when all were done on paper and there was no Huntin Fool, Hunters Trail, Epic Outdoors, GoHunt, Eastmans, etc., I never remember seeing any wording that the money I paid was a "donation". They all used the word "buy". But I never saw any contract or limitations about pretty much anything. Since that time, I saw tons of point devaluing schemes, reaching an all time low point when in mid-stream Maine began selling 10 packs of points for $55..........no quantity limit! A friend from ME told me he knew of one Calif. hunter who bought $5,000/points for three years and drew bull moose twice. I never saw any lawsuits about this, so apparently it's just fine? Back then I also had 3 friends abandon their points and quit that game. But perhaps if states can't legally dissolve all points without reimbursing fees, this is their way around it?

 

[LopeHunter]

Seems to me (and I'm new to this and hold 1 elk point and 1 deer point) that if states would just cap point accrual the problem would be solved. If you knew that you can only accrue 5 or 10 points for a species and after that you can't get any more you'd use them as soon as you got to the 5 or 10 point limit. Kind of like loosing vacation days if you hit the maximum (not a problem I've ever had or ever will have). The folks with tons of points would be capped where they are and attrition would take care of things from there in a few years.

That is my proposal as well on how to provided fairness to people who apply for years without drawing yet do not create a multi-decade hurdle for newcomers. What percent of applicants draw a tag in the state for a species? Some species is under 1% in some states and in other cases may be over 20%.

Once I take over the world:

1) Non-residents get 15% of all big game tags placed into in a separate pool so they will get everyone of those tags and not up to (looking at you ID and AZ).
2) 50% of tags in a pool go random. 50% go in bonus pool where you square your prior points plus one for this year. Bonus points cap at 10 so in your 11th and 12 and 13th year of not drawing etc you will have 101 chances if you have reached the 10 point cap (looking at you CO deer and elk plus at you WY sheep).
3) If you get a tag, you lose your points for that species. 1st choice or last or landowner or auction or raffle, etc, puts you to 0 bonus points. (looking at you Colorado). Leftover tags are sold at non-resident rates and do not use up your bonus points.
4) Non-resident costs are set at 5x resident. If resident pays $40 for a license then can charge non-resident $200. If sheep tags is $200 for resident then can be $1000 for non-resident (looking at you WY bison tag and every state that fears asking residents to keep tag costs up with inflation).
5) If a resident is eligible for a tag then so is a non-resident (looking at you NM and your cow elk tags and WY at your regional deer tags).
6) When you draw a tag in the main draw then you have a waiting period in years to again apply as follows: If number of tags awarded for a species was less than 10% of applicants then you wait 10 years whether successful or not in harvesting an animal. If tags awarded are between 11% and 30% then you wait 2 years and if over 30% then no waiting period.
7) If you are convicted or plead out on a big game-related violation that involved any of the following then you forfeit the ability to apply as a non-resident for 20 years beyond any ruling by a court: hunting without a valid tag, hunting in wrong unit, hunting outside of allowed hours, hunting outside of allowed days or using invalid weapon type.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Greenhorn - I asked a very valid question. This thread is good and productive. If you are some teenager please get off mom's computer and go do your homework.

While completing applications for the last 20+ years, back to when all were done on paper and there was no Huntin Fool, Hunters Trail, Epic Outdoors, GoHunt, Eastmans, etc., I never remember seeing any wording that the money I paid was a "donation". They all used the word "buy". But I never saw any contract or limitations about pretty much anything. Since that time, I saw tons of point devaluing schemes, reaching an all time low point when in mid-stream Maine began selling 6 packs of points for $55..........no quantity limit! A friend from ME told me he knew of one Calif. hunter who bought $5,000/points for three years and drew bull moose twice. I never saw any lawsuits about this, so apparently it's just fine? Back then I also had 3 friends abandon their points and quit that game. But perhaps if states can't legally dissolve all points without reimbursing fees, this is their way around it?

Every time you post, you're whimpering about your points and how you've somehow been unethically violated. Where did any state promise you a permit when you have a choice to buy a preference or bonus point? I've got a mountain of points in a lot of states, yet I'm not crying like a little baby when I don't draw. I can't wait until you draw an AZ elk permit, so I can read about the inevitable outcome and your whiny excuses about why you didn't get a good elk, and the blame game. I especially enjoyed reading about your time in MT last fall. That was no surprise. It's no shocker to read that you actually bring up lawsuits over your crappy times in the outdoors.

I applied for an archery permit in AZ. 20 points, .3% odds of drawing. No tears.

Stop your pathetic whining.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

This is what would be so great about every state doing random draw. Guys wouldn't be able to apply in a half dozen states. You will have to choose what you really want to apply for and skip the rest and this will eliminate some applicants. If there are fewer applicants then the odds of drawing a tag will improve.

It would probably be more cost effective to buy a guided hunt at that point or use one of those Rip off tag services.

 

[Zim]

Greenhorn,

1. You totally evaded my question.

2. Your last post and a peek into your past posts shown in your profile shows who the real whiner is. Including a lot of insults to other posters. Not cool at all.

Now maybe you can actually do something constructive for the OP and answer my question?

 

[The Hedgehog]

Okay Zim. I'll answer.

No - I'd never do the mail order bride thing.

 

[Zim]

Greenhorn, You are way out of line. Randy set up some pretty basic rules everyone should follow. You violated four of them in this thread: Personal attack; Hijacked the thread; Negative posts; Topic has nothing to do with public land. Probably more. Yet you continue a personal attack. Not sure who you think you are. But me being the nice guy I am, I'm moving forward to try and get this thread back on track per Randy's rules.

Now, perhaps you and some others may think my questions are sarcastic, but I assure you they are not at all. The policy Maine instituted is in fact true. So my questions are very valid. They are not negative, they are totally true! They are extremely constructive. They are directly on topic. They pertain to public land. They don't personally attack anyone:

1. States could do random lotteries without requiring up front money like NM does. But that got me thinking, is there some kind of legal limit as to how much a state can screw point holders? Can they just decide one day to make all preference points they sold previously bonus points? Can they just come out with some announcement...........Hey we are just going to dissolve all these point things we've been selling for the last 25 years. They are now worth zero. But oh ya we are not going to be reimbursing you guys. Any attorneys out there have any thoughts?

2. While completing applications for the last 20+ years, back to when all were done on paper and there was no Huntin Fool, Hunters Trail, Epic Outdoors, GoHunt, Eastmans, etc., I never remember seeing any wording that the money I paid was a "donation". They all used the word "buy". But I never saw any contract or limitations about pretty much anything. Since that time, I saw tons of point devaluing schemes, reaching an all time low point when in mid-stream Maine began selling 10 packs of points for $55..........no quantity limit! A friend from ME told me he knew of one Calif. hunter who bought $5,000/points for three years and drew bull moose twice. I never saw any lawsuits about this, so apparently it's just fine? Back then I also had 3 friends abandon their points and quit that game. But perhaps if states can't legally dissolve all points without reimbursing fees, this is their way around it?

 

[MTTW]

What if those points you bought were actually administration fees?

 

[The Hedgehog]

Zim:
1) No,Yes,Yes,not an attorney - buy I'm sure you could find one that would help you chase your tail.
2) Yes,Yes.
Have fun with your points.

 

[BuzzH]

Zim,

You are out of line with your constant whining about points.

You are the classic example of why I dislike point systems so much, you have a very entitled attitude. You think because you voluntarily purchase a POINT every year in a few states, you wrongly connect vague dots that it somehow entitles you to permit. It does not. You received absolutely what you paid for, a point. Its buyer beware, the points are non-refundable, same as your license once its issued. If you somehow lived in fantasyland that the point systems would remain the same for your lifetime, you're wrong about that too. There was never a guarantee made to you that any point system would result in a tag. NONE.

Further, each state can choose to do whatever they want with regard to their wildlife resources. That includes how they choose to deal with point systems, if they want to start, change, or abolish point systems. Its not YOUR choice, its the choice of the citizens of the States that you apply in.

If you want my opinion, do away with all point systems completely and then I wouldn't have to listen to guys like you complaining about them. I wouldn't have to shake my head in disbelief that a supposed hunter would talk of lawsuits over points...suing the very agencies that manage the game you supposedly care about.

You cry about your ex-wife suing for what she figured she was entitled to, yet you turn right around and threaten to do the same thing over preference points? Equal parts sad and pathetic.

Like I said in a previous post, these point systems truly bring out the worst in people...ZIM, you're the classic example of that.

I actually hope you draw all your tags in states you have points in, take with both hands and give nothing back, then get out of the sport. You choose to do more damage than good, and frankly, we don't need guys like you involved at all.

 

[onpoint]

Jesus Christ, how do you get away with chit like that, Buzz.
Years ago, I told mdunc8 to get off his ass and go to a meeting, got a whole bunch of whining, including from the boss due to that relatively tame deal.
Don't get me wrong, your post has me laughin......keep it up.
Me and mdunc have actually almost engaged in a light hearted exchange - years later.
You just may be in the process of making a whole bunch of future buddies.....
This is an interesting place - carry on.

 

[BuzzH]

What am I getting away with? Telling the truth isn't getting away with anything is it?

I mean really, for goodness sake, threatening to sue the GF over a frickin' preference point or a preference point system? Crying and caring on about not being able to draw a tag?

Wish that's all I had to worry about all day.

 

[onpoint]

Telling the truth isn't getting away with anything is it?

nope......

you must be in the company of a lotta bastards

 

[BuzzH]

I don't suffer fools...at all. No time for coddling and warming bottles.