What is the end game with tags?

[hank4elk]

Well said Buzz.
The only real trophy/bucket list deal I ever had in my head was a real nice bull ,nice big salmon & halibut...I joined the BC Tyee club with a 56lb Chinook & a 80lb barn door.
Used to help some outfitters scout & track BHS and they are fun to watch,but never understood the draw. And we were poor and ate sheep more often than I liked.....lol
I still would like a giant bull and know it's a pass on 340 if you do and can do that.
I am just as happy to go hunt mule deer and hunt for cows locally now.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

You're asking the wrong questions...hunting and recruitment will not be saved by sheep, moose, and goat tags or the "fair" distribution of the associated tags for same. IMO, you need to quit worrying about the hard to draw tags/species and how those impact hunter recruitment or retain hunters. Those species, IMO, draw out the very worst in human behavior...exactly why the point systems were adopted, the ego fueled BS that revolves around hunting those species, the adoption of raffle tags, governors tags, the commercialization, the list goes on and on.

Like pointer said, concentrate on what you CAN hunt...stay focused on the massive amounts of opportunity and species that WILL save the sport via hunter recruitment and retention. Focus on access and increasing access to the blue collar species that we all can hunt yearly.

Does a person need to draw a desert sheep tag to experience the desert environments of Arizona? Hell no, very easy to draw coues deer tags, javelina, even bird hunting there is a grand adventure. What the heck is wrong with a high country mule deer hunt in Wyoming, instead of a sheep hunt? What's wrong with a 12 year old kid having a couple pronghorn doe tags in their pocket and a vast expanse of Wyoming prairie to hunt? You don't need a tag for a curly horned critter to experience some wonderful hunting.

I say if we're worrying about drawing moose, sheep, and goat tags....we're missing the point. We're robbing ourselves of experiences that are well within reach.

What I truly miss about hunting, and what's most important to me...is the 12 year old kid with a ruger m77, a pocket full of Winchester power points, a fanny pack with a sandwich, candy bar, dragging rope, old timer knife, and a Montana deer and elk tag...hunting with Dad and Grandpa.

THAT is what I miss, and I wouldn't trade that for all the f-ing sheep tags on the planet...ever.

I'm embarrassed for myself at times that I've allowed myself to worry about chit like preference point systems and OIL tags...not that important in the entire scheme of things. Focus on what you CAN do, not on what you CANT.

Right, wrong, agree, disagree with the thread; This is the best quote I've read in a long time. Thanks Buzz

 

[Flatland Crusoe]

I think there has to be an inevitable collapse to any system where demand outstrips supply 100:1. I'm not sure if it will be political pressure, or a numeric slump in application (unlikely) that eventually brings the systems down or at least brings point totals to maturity. I don't think there will be a return to pure lottery because preference points make states too much money at only the tangible cost of administration. Ultimately it will have to get even worse and leaders of conservation organization, Outfitter industry groups and outdoor magazine editorial boards will have to decide the system is broken to push any real change.

I think things that would help would be a unified once in a lifetime tag rule sheep across the lower 48 states, aka you drew a sheep tag in Montana now you can't get one in Idaho. This would never happen politically because then the wild sheep foundation board members couldn't get their grand slam and because it would require 10? state agencies to agree to a system.

The issue will always be more sheep, or goats or moose on the mountain.

Guys chasing 20 and 30 point elk and deer tags are chasing stories and are actively passing up opportunities to hunt those species on a regular basis.

 

[LWC55]

You're asking the wrong questions...hunting and recruitment will not be saved by sheep, moose, and goat tags or the "fair" distribution of the associated tags for same. IMO, you need to quit worrying about the hard to draw tags/species and how those impact hunter recruitment or retain hunters. Those species, IMO, draw out the very worst in human behavior...exactly why the point systems were adopted, the ego fueled BS that revolves around hunting those species, the adoption of raffle tags, governors tags, the commercialization, the list goes on and on.

Like pointer said, concentrate on what you CAN hunt...stay focused on the massive amounts of opportunity and species that WILL save the sport via hunter recruitment and retention. Focus on access and increasing access to the blue collar species that we all can hunt yearly.

Does a person need to draw a desert sheep tag to experience the desert environments of Arizona? Hell no, very easy to draw coues deer tags, javelina, even bird hunting there is a grand adventure. What the heck is wrong with a high country mule deer hunt in Wyoming, instead of a sheep hunt? What's wrong with a 12 year old kid having a couple pronghorn doe tags in their pocket and a vast expanse of Wyoming prairie to hunt? You don't need a tag for a curly horned critter to experience some wonderful hunting.

I say if we're worrying about drawing moose, sheep, and goat tags....we're missing the point. We're robbing ourselves of experiences that are well within reach.

What I truly miss about hunting, and what's most important to me...is the 12 year old kid with a ruger m77, a pocket full of Winchester power points, a fanny pack with a sandwich, candy bar, dragging rope, old timer knife, and a Montana deer and elk tag...hunting with Dad and Grandpa.

THAT is what I miss, and I wouldn't trade that for all the f-ing sheep tags on the planet...ever.

I'm embarrassed for myself at times that I've allowed myself to worry about chit like preference point systems and OIL tags...not that important in the entire scheme of things. Focus on what you CAN do, not on what you CANT.

I totally agree Buzz and I'm not worried about myself ever hunting a OIL species. AZ sheep is the only one I'm applying for and only because I'm applying for everything else. Guess I'm just curious as to how people think these point systems will eventually mature and play out. Also enjoy seeing the discussion and ideas for how these systems could possibly be changed in the future.

 

[MTTW]

I have arrived at the same point as Buzz. I gave up the drawing game a few years ago simply because I prefer low pressure hunts close to home. After realizing that I might be too old to hunt goats with my boys by the time they drew a tag, this September we packed up and went mule deer hunting in the early season where we used to hunt goats. We saw a few deer and lots of goats. One of my sons killed a buck, and we had the best hunt maybe ever. I didn't even carry a gun. I feel like a fool for not taking them to that area before, all the time wishing for a goat tag to make it worth the trip. I went 35 years between visits to some of the most awe inspiring country I have seen in my life. I don't waste my time regretting much of anything, but I regret that.

I am going to hunt unlimited sheep next year, which I haven't done in 25 years. I am not wasting my remaining good years waiting for some lottery tag to go hunting. I am just going to pack up and go hunting.

 

[Flatrock]

How would states replace the money they get from point schemes? Using the preference point charts that are on the WY website, if every person that has a point going into the 2017 draw buys another point, the state would collect a little over 9 million dollars. That isn't completely accurate though because there will be more people coming into the system, some existing point holders won't buy a point this year and thousands of people will draw tags and not have to pay for a point. I don't know what the state will actually take in but I have to assume it's at least close to the 9 million mark with how many people are coming into the system each year.

What is the G&F budget for a state like WY? What % of the budget do points account for? If WY gets rid of points, do they also require you to buy a new, $150 license just to apply?

I honestly think Wyoming's system is pretty good and like it. 75% to point holders and 25% in the random draw. As somebody mentioned, maybe 1 in 250 odds for a sheep tag. All things considered, that's not a whole lot different than other states.

 

[O C Hunter]

And the icing on the cake is these trophy units are often not as advertised. Game and Fish departments sometimes lie about the quality of these units. Or, they use common core math to come up with their numbers. It sure is disappointing, after waiting for many years to draw a tag, to show up in your hunting area and not see an antler after hunting for a week. Some say, " you can't expect to see a bull behind every tree." I disagree. If they tell me there is a bull behind every tree, then there better be one there.

 

[Gr8bawana]

And the icing on the cake is these trophy units are often not as advertised. Game and Fish departments sometimes lie about the quality of these units. Or, they use common core math to come up with their numbers. It sure is disappointing, after waiting for many years to draw a tag, to show up in your hunting area and not see an antler after hunting for a week. Some say, " you can't expect to see a bull behind every tree." I disagree. If they tell me there is a bull behind every tree, then there better be one there.

Even the best trophy areas in any state do not have "bulls behind every tree". I think a lot of hunters expect that when they see an area is a "trophy" area. Unless you hunt on elk farms like many of the tv hunting shows where they show hundreds of elk standing around, that is not the case. If this happened to you, you were sadly mistaken and that is on you.

I believe point is being driven by the ever increasing number of hunters who want to shoot only a trophy bull or buck. Game management agencies are hard pressed to balance areas for trophy quality versus proving opportunity for those of us who just want a chance to hunt regularly.

 

[Zim]

Virtually all states have proven they don't give a rip about the 20+ point folks they sold points to in the past. They have no ethics. All they care about is maximizing the money they make now. Ultimately any tags that don't get pissed away by corruption to outfitter or landowner or SFW welfare, will gravitate to a random draw, with a lot of unnecessary confusion brought on by a complex distribution system (like AZ) to mislead newbies so they buy in. Whatever it takes to profit the most. As to how they deal with us 20+ point guys? At some point the preference value of our points will be completely rescinded and just be completely converted to bonus points until we die off. They will because they can, since they are not held to any bait-n-switch standards, like the rest of us mere mortals.

 

[Firedude]

How would states replace the money they get from point schemes? Using the preference point charts that are on the WY website, if every person that has a point going into the 2017 draw buys another point, the state would collect a little over 9 million dollars. That isn't completely accurate though because there will be more people coming into the system, some existing point holders won't buy a point this year and thousands of people will draw tags and not have to pay for a point. I don't know what the state will actually take in but I have to assume it's at least close to the 9 million mark with how many people are coming into the system each year.

What is the G&F budget for a state like WY? What % of the budget do points account for? If WY gets rid of points, do they also require you to buy a new, $150 license just to apply?

I honestly think Wyoming's system is pretty good and like it. 75% to point holders and 25% in the random draw. As somebody mentioned, maybe 1 in 250 odds for a sheep tag. All things considered, that's not a whole lot different than other states.

I agree. I hate point only systems as they do pretty much turn into only the first few applicants will ever draw. With random draws our odds are dropping every year as more and more people apply. I do like Wyoming for this reason. I had an old friend who took 28 years to draw a moose tag in a 1 in 8 odds area. Another one took 36 in the same unit. It was the only controlled tag he ever drew in his life. Yeah he was a statistical anomaly but it happens. Some try to argue but then when asked where they are putting in they say "Wyoming! I've got 5 points and a chance in the random draw PLUS leftover tags!" Sounds like a pretty good system to me.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I was thinking about this the other day and was wondering if one solution would be to create a rule where you could only build points in one state for one species, hunt OTC all you want, but you have to decide Missouri breaks elk or Colorado sheep. I wonder how many of the top sheep point holders in Wyoming are the top holders in CO, Utah, Montana, etc. I'm building points in 4 states for various critters and I bet most people are doing the same.

 

[Brad Daniel]

Throwing my sheep points in the garbage. Burned my moose points on a Snowy Range cow tag last season. I'm done with the points game. We have completely screwed our childrens hope of ever getting these tags.

 

[teej89]

What I truly miss about hunting, and what's most important to me...is the 12 year old kid with a ruger m77, a pocket full of Winchester power points, a fanny pack with a sandwich, candy bar, dragging rope, old timer knife, and a Montana deer and elk tag...hunting with Dad and Grandpa.

THAT is what I miss, and I wouldn't trade that for all the f-ing sheep tags on the planet...ever.

wow, well put Buzz, and this brought back memories... granted it was a PA buck tag

 

[Gr8bawana]

OK I understand that we all want to draw all our tags every year, but that is never going to happen since there are so many more hunters applying for those tags than are available.
So my question to you is what would be your solution?
A random draw? You would still be one of countless names in the hat, you probably would still never draw that sheep or moose tag.
A point system where those at the bottom will likely never draw that tag?
A bonus point system where a person with no bonus point could conceivably draw that tag?
What is the answer? I don't know. I do know that just complaining about it without having any suggestion does no good either.

 

[LCH]

For me, a guy that just got into out of state hunting a few years ago, I feel there is no reason to look past 5 years or so. I look at what can be drawn with 2, 3, 4 points, get the tag, hunt, repeat. I have no intention of building points for decades.

I have a hell of a time every year when I go out, kill or no kill; maybe I just don't know what I'm missing.

 

[mdhunter]

I apply for about 25 different tags annually and have done so for the last ten years. I have drawn some good ones and hope to see a few more. That said, at age 49 I doubt I will ever see a sheep tag in more than one state. I plan to start burning the points as fast as possible beginning in 2018.

Building points is certainly a mess of a system and one that I don't prefer.

 

[LWC55]

For me, a guy that just got into out of state hunting a few years ago, I feel there is no reason to look past 5 years or so. I look at what can be drawn with 2, 3, 4 points, get the tag, hunt, repeat. I have no intention of building points for decades.

I have a hell of a time every year when I go out, kill or no kill; maybe I just don't know what I'm missing.

^^^This is pretty much where I'm at.

It is just the principle of the point system that I don't agree with. If you weren't born at the right time, you (or your children) have no shot at certain tags. I'd be for going all random tags. I'd also be good with capping max points.....at say 10 points. That way you still get an advantage over someone who never applied before....but newbies and younger hunters could catch up in a somewhat reasonable amount of time.

 

[NoWiser]

I'd like to see a totally random system for tags. If you really want a tag, put in for a draw with good odds. If you don't care so much, don't put in, or put in for the top units. If the states really want to keep selling points, just do a straight bonus point system (not squared).

Since point systems seem to be here for the foreseeable future, and being I got in the game late due to age, my goal is to not build over 5 or 6 points for any species, in any state, if possible. I also lean heavily towards states with a random draw, like New Mexico.

 

[wildaggie13]

I agree that something must change but what happens if every state starting moving to the New Mexico model of random drawing with no points system. Then I wouldn't be able to apply for the 7 other states that I currently apply for. You know that they would all require you to front the money on the tags and that would get expensive in a hurry!! Elk tag, antelope tag, and mule deer tag would be around $1500 per state. It would cost me $12,000 to apply to all 8 states. I also think it make it harder to to plan our fall hunts with every state being random draws in different months.

 

[zadvorney]

I have ten points in CO for elk and deer and am going to blow them as soon as I can. I'm done with worrying about points. I found a place to hunt, it needs a point or two to draw. I can hunt once every 2-3 years. Works for me. The problem with the point creep might be in us. If we change our perspective about the NEED to draw a trophy area and realize it's just a want. Just go hunting somewhere.