We're done in Iraq

[Ithaca 37]

I think the pictures of American soldiers humiliating Iraquis has taken away Bush's ability to ask the American public to trust him on Iraq. It's going to make the situation much worse, reinforce bin Laden's claims that America is out to shame Arabs, and turn many more Arabs against us. It's a political disaster for the US, unfortunately. When the Arabs see the pictures all the explanations in the world aren't going to make any difference. Remember, there's a real high rate of illiteracy in most Arab countries. It's a first class disaster.

 

[Bambistew]

I agree It.. Its going to be a disaster, that's going to be extreamly hard to clean up.

 

[Tom]

The challenge is to not let a few missfits be the norm. They are taking actions, investigating. I heard some supervisors got reprimand letters, so clean up action has started. Don't most people understand a few mistakes can happen.

I heard they need 500 more trained interrogators now and could only find 12 from South Korea.

 

[Nemont]

I agree with you Ithaca. . The actions of those guards will enrage all Arabs across the region. Unfortunately, these pics are going to be political dynamite. I think that for once I agree with John MaCain and there needs to be a swift, full and complete investigation and heads need to roll. I was disgusted by what I saw.

Nemont

 

[danr55]

Why is it that we see so many copies of these pictures of rude acts committed by a few idiots, and so few pictures of the four American boys who were dragged through the streets and mutilated? If it were me, I would take Fallujah, sever some heads and post them on pikes outside the city for all to see. "Wanna screw with Uncle..?? Com'on down!"

I, for one, am tired of these morons being afforded the safety of thier mosque to run out and kill American soldiers and run back in and hide with impunity. That would have washed for about 3 days, then I would have leveled the damn place.

That's probably why I'm not running this damned show.. Good thing isn't it??

I remember pictures of Charlie sitting in a bomb crater with a smoke in his mouth, and only half a head.. It was done with Japanese during WWII, Koreans and VC.. What is to say that things would be any different now? The attitude of the people. A little dose of reality would do everyone good. We are quick to forget that these are men who would, given the chance, kill our sons and fathers and brothers. What was done was not to be admired, but it is not a new phenomenon..

 

[Hangar18]

I think it is time for the White House to turn military operations over to the military. If I remember right, it is not against the Geneva Convention to go into a house of worship to detain/dispose of someone that is committing hostile or aggressive acts.

 

[Hangar18]

The Daily Mirror (who originally published the abuse photos) may be contributing to enemy propaganda during wartime.



http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/02/iraq.photos.reaction/

Doubts over UK 'abuse' pictures

Monday, May 3, 2004 Posted: 12:46 AM EDT (0446 GMT)

(CNN) -- Controversy is growing over the authenticity of photographs that allegedly show British troops mistreating an Iraqi prisoner.

Some British military officials have cast doubt on the pictures -- first published in the Daily Mirror newspaper -- saying the clothing and equipment pictured is not currently troop issue.

Rival newspaper The Sun ran a story on Monday quoting military experts saying the photographs were "staged" fakes.

The experts quoted said the rifle and clothing pictured were not equipment currently issued to British troops serving in Iraq, and cited a list of inconsistencies with the pictures.

The Mirror's pictures, which it said came from two soldiers in the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, showed soldiers apparently kicking, stamping and urinating on a hooded Iraqi.

It said they were taken during an eight-hour beating in Basra, southern Iraq, where Britain has around 7,500 troops.

The Daily Mirror is standing by the story and on Monday published more detailed reports of alleged abuse.

"Despite the whispering campaign and dodgy briefings that went on yesterday, the Daily Mirror has no doubt that the allegations made by the two soldiers who came to us were true," the newspaper said in an editorial on Monday.

But the newspaper seemingly acknowledged that the apparent inconsistencies could not be easily explained.

"The two squaddies (British soldiers) admit they cannot answer questions regarding minor details in the photos which were taken months ago," said the newspaper.

The Mirror said one of the unnamed soldiers who went to the paper with the allegations of abuse said he knew of colleagues who had boasted of what would be classed as war crimes.

"Some lads were telling of how they made an Iraqi swim across a river and were taking pot shots at him," the soldier was quoted as saying.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw says an investigation into the matter is ongoing.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair also condemned the alleged abuse, but stressed it did not reflect the conduct of the vast majority of coalition troops.

"This is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are in Iraq," Blair's official spokesman said.

Eight cases of alleged mistreatment by British personnel were being investigated, he confirmed.

American television network CBS has also aired photos of U.S. soldiers apparently engaged in a wide range of abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad.

CNN has not verified the authenticity of those images.

The chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff has denied reports of widespread and systematic abuse of inmates at Abu Ghraib.

 

[feclnogn]

I agree with you itaca except on one point

taken away Bush's ability to ask the American public to trust him on Iraq.

I dont blame Bush for this.

When this broke I told my wife that we might just have lost the war on terror. My wife is in the Guard full time and she almost cried when she saw what these soldiers did.

 

[feclnogn]

There is a lot of truth to this story

'Six morons who lost the war'

Tue May 4, 2:16 PM ET Add World - OneWorld.net to My Yahoo!


Tom Regan, Christian Science Monitor

Regardless of the outcome of the now multiple investigations into prisoner abuse at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison, politicians and media around the world say the United States' image has suffered a serious blow. Sen. Joe Biden (D) of Delaware said on Fox News Sunday that "This is the single most significant undermining act that's occurred in a decade in that region of the world in terms of our standing."


• OneWorld on Iraq


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Slideshow: Abuse of Iraq Prisoners Investigated





Latest headlines:
· Rumsfeld: Abusive Soldiers 'Un-American'
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· White House Seeks to Calm Iraq Abuse Fury
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The Associated Press reports that a senior Bush administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the photos (of US soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners) hurt the US efforts to win over an audience that is already deeply skeptical of US intentions. Arabs and Muslims, the official added, "are certain to seize upon the images as proof that the American occupiers are as brutal as ousted President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s government."


Officials at the Defense Department are also said to be "livid," and well aware of the damage that has been done by the incident, according to NBC News' Pentagon (news - web sites) reporter Jim Miklaszewski. Speaking on the Imus in the Morning radio/MSNBC program Tuesday , Mr. Miklaszewski said he asked a Pentagon contact about the soldiers alleged to be involved, to which the Pentagon official replied, "You mean the six morons who lost the war?"

story

 

[Hangar18]

Yeah, I just found this. Pretty f**king sorry.

http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/401383|top|05-04-2004::17:05|reuters.html

U.S. Reveals Iraqi Prisoner Deaths as Scandal Grows

May 4, 4:54 PM (ET)

By Alan Elsner
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two Iraqi prisoners were murdered by Americans and 23 other deaths are being investigated in Iraq and Afghanistan, the United States revealed on Tuesday as the Bush administration tried to contain growing outrage over the abuse of Iraqi detainees.

"The actions of the soldiers in those photographs are totally unacceptable and un-American," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said of humiliating images in the media of Iraqi prisoners. "Any who engaged in such action let down their comrades who serve honorably each day and they let down their country."

Army officials said the military had investigated the deaths of 25 prisoners held by American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and determined that an Army soldier and a CIA contractor murdered two prisoners. Most of the deaths occurred in Iraq.

An official said a soldier was convicted in the U.S. military justice system of killing a prisoner by hitting him with a rock, and was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service but did not serve any jail time.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said a private contractor who worked for the CIA was found to have committed the other homicide against a prisoner.

Secretary of State Colin Powell, at the United Nations for consultations on the Middle East, said only a "small number" of American troops had been involved in the abuse and vowed wrongdoers would be quickly brought to justice.

"I can assure you that no stone will be left unturned to make sure that justice is done and to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again," he said.

President Bush, campaigning in Ohio, did not mention the abuse but his National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice again said the president was disgusted and outraged and had demanded those responsible be held accountable.

"The president has told the secretary of defense that he expects people to be held accountable, and that he wants, too, to know that this is not a systemic problem," Rice said.

"In other words, quite apart from the specific cases of those particular photographs, Americans do not dehumanize other people. That is not why we're in Iraq. We're in Iraq to liberate a people, to help them," she added.

NEW ALLEGATIONS

Six U.S. soldiers have been reprimanded and six others face criminal charges in connection with abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad, but Iraqi prisoners have complained of inhumane treatment by U.S. troops at other centers as well. The allegations first surfaced on Jan. 13 but were only made public last week.

Images of Iraqis prisoners stripped of their clothes and being humiliated and abused have badly damaged U.S. prestige and credibility, especially in the Arab world. They have severely dented the U.S. argument that it invaded Iraq to bring democracy and human rights to a nation brutalized by a vicious dictator, former President Saddam Hussein.

Shocking excerpts from a report on the abuse completed on March 3 by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba and acquired by Reuters on Tuesday, were likely to further stoke fury at home and abroad.

"Between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees," the report said.

"This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320th Military Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF)."

Taguba said several detainees had credibly described acts of abuse, including:

+ Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees

+ Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair

+ Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick

+ Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them

+ Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time

+ Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped

ANGRY LAWMAKERS

On Capitol Hill, angry Republicans and Democrats weighed in on the scandal. The Senate Intelligence Committee scheduled a closed hearing for Wednesday.

"The prisoner abuse is so disgusting, so degrading, that I think humanity has been hurt broadly," said Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a Tennessee Republican. He said it could undercut U.S. efforts to bring democracy to Iraq.

Sen. John McCain, an Arizona Republican and committee member who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam, joined many lawmakers in complaining that Rumsfeld and other top Pentagon officials failed to inform Congress of the situation.

Rumsfeld refused to use the word "torture."

"I'm not a lawyer," he said. "My impression is that what has been charged thus far is abuse, which I believe technically is different from torture ... And therefore I'm not going to address the 'torture' word."

 

[BuzzH]

Danr said, "Why is it that we see so many copies of these pictures of rude acts committed by a few idiots, and so few pictures of the four American boys who were dragged through the streets and mutilated? If it were me, I would take Fallujah, sever some heads and post them on pikes outside the city for all to see. "Wanna screw with Uncle..?? Com'on down!"

Sometimes I wonder about what goes through some peoples minds...I really do.

I'll tell you why this is absolutely a huge deal, you dont say one thing and do another.

First off, Bush flat out lied about the WMD business and Sadams involvement with al quaeda and the war in general. Then to cover his ass, he says, "well its because he treated his people poorly, he was abusing his people, etc. etc. bs..etc. etc.

Ok, fine you sell that to the American public, he gassed, maimed and otherwise tortured his people, he's terrible.

Let the Americans come to the rescue, we'll treat you the same way???? If you want to take the moral high-ground, and stick your nose in their business, dont act the same way.

Its a fargin joke, and what message are you sending? Not the right one, IMO.

Thats the problem with becoming the worlds moral police and barometer, you cant do stupid crap like this without looking like the bad guy.

 

[danr55]

Buzz, No one is saying that what was done was right. It just seems curious to me that the world press is so outraged about people being insulted and so uneffected by people being mutilated and murdered.. Guess USA bashing is still a favorite past time of the American press.

 

[BuzzH]

Danr, maybe the world press wouldnt be so outraged if the U.S. wasnt always making itself out to be so freaking self-righteous about everything.

 

[pawclaws]

One of the idiots in the media actually asked Rumsfeld why the investigations begun in January were classified Secret! Everyone remember what gets that tag? Information if released may do great harm to the United States. The media who published those photographs and quote uncovered this story needs to be slapped with treason as well as any insider who helped them to get that information. Yes it was wrong and it was being dealt with in a manner to try to avoid exactly what is happening now. Now the only thing that can be done is a Bush apology, return of the affected prisoners to their homes, and severe punishment for the commanders and perps involved. Actually if Bush would quickly do those things, Iraq may just fold up and benefit Bush tremendously.

[ 05-05-2004, 08:04: Message edited by: pawclaws ]

 

[feclnogn]

Watching the talking heads on TV I am thinking sometime towards the end of the week Tom Daschle, Kennedy and Kerry will ask for Rumsfeilds resignation.

Paws I was thinking the same thing. These photos should have been labeled a national security issue and pulled, however I was reading online somewhere that these photos were posted by one of the soldiers on a PORN site and that is how they came into the public realm. I do not know if that is true as I don't recall seeing that mentioned elsewhere.

If you want Irag to fold up we need to get Sadr gone, Fallujah under control and Sadrs army removed. Tonight they started in Karbala with Sadrs army, maybe they will get the rest done as well. These spots could be eliminated in about a week if we decided to do so. I think Bush needs to let the military do its job and leave consideration of the IGC's politics to be dealt with another day. We are in charge right now we need to do what we need to do. Our soldiers deserve nothing less.

 

[pawclaws]

Exactly Feclnogin! I'm thinking that with the proper contrition that the militant groups will completely lose their following because it will be lthe exact opposite of what they have been taught to believe about Americans or Christians. Without followers; the insurgency is finished with the possible exception of the Bathist "pocket liners" who will remain. One other thing occurred yesterday that surprised the hell out of me. Lt General (retired) Claudia Kennedy sporting a Hilary Clintonesque hairdo, sounding like a Born Again Liberal and praising Kerry for his heroic war exploits. I have known Claudia since she was a Chicken Colonel and man has she ever been sucked in. Wondering what she has been promised by the DNC and Kerry. She was one of my favorite field grade officers.

 

[Tom]

Saddam and Mohammad Atta, remember him?

Here's a remark about Saddam's terrorist activities in a review of the book, Saddam:King of Terror, the remark is written by a Canadian and they are more liberal than most of us on average, aren't they.

"Con Coughlin's biography of Saddam Hussein is very well written. Coughlin eloquently reveals Saddam Hussein's true colors - colors that should dispel the liberal illusion that regime change in Iraq was wrong. In addition, Coughlin writes for London's Sunday Telegraph. His reporting is top-notch, his insights invaluable.

A recent report of his was that of a hand written memo discovered by the Iraqi Governing Council addressed to Saddam Hussein, written by Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti, saying that Mohammed Atta (chief 9/11 hijacker) has completed his training w/Abu Nidal in Baghdad and is now ready to "destroy the targets we seek to destroy".

The truth hurts - especially for liberal propagandists."

Saddam had more weapons of mass destruction in the early 90s than most realised when the inspections started, all the intelligence people from many countries said he had WMD. I think/guess they've been moved to neighboring countries. Saddam won't use them again, but others might.

Here's a story about it for those who missed it.

*********************
December 14, 2003
The Telegraph: Saddam helped train September 11 terrorist, Mohammed Atta. Saddam obtained uranium from Niger, Africa.
There were stunning revelations in The Telegraph on Saturday.

Dr Ayad Allawi, a member of Iraq's ruling seven-man Presidential Committee, reported on a top secret memo that has been recovered. The memo, dated July 1, 2001, is to Saddam Hussein from Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti, the former head of the Iraqi Intelligence Service. The memo details: (1) Saddam's aid in training September 11 terrorist, Mohammed Atta, and (2) Saddam's successful effort to obtain uranium from Niger, Africa.

As reported in The Telegraph:

* * *

Terrorist behind September 11 strike was trained by Saddam
By Con Coughlin
(Filed: 14/12/2003)

Iraq's coalition government claims that it has uncovered documentary proof that Mohammed Atta, the al-Qaeda mastermind of the September 11 attacks against the US, was trained in Baghdad by Abu Nidal, the notorious Palestinian terrorist.

Details of Atta's visit to the Iraqi capital in the summer of 2001, just weeks before he launched the most devastating terrorist attack in US history, are contained in a top secret memo written to Saddam Hussein, the then Iraqi president, by Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti, the former head of the Iraqi Intelligence Service.

The handwritten memo, a copy of which has been obtained exclusively by the Telegraph, is dated July 1, 2001 and provides a short resume of a three-day "work programme" Atta had undertaken at Abu Nidal's base in Baghdad.

In the memo, Habbush reports that Atta "displayed extraordinary effort" and demonstrated his ability to lead the team that would be "responsible for attacking the targets that we have agreed to destroy".

The second part of the memo, which is headed "Niger Shipment", contains a report about an unspecified shipment - believed to be uranium - that it says has been transported to Iraq via Libya and Syria.

Although Iraqi officials refused to disclose how and where they had obtained the document, Dr Ayad Allawi, a member of Iraq's ruling seven-man Presidential Committee, said the document was genuine.

"We are uncovering evidence all the time of Saddam's involvement with al-Qaeda," he said. "But this is the most compelling piece of evidence that we have found so far. It shows that not only did Saddam have contacts with al-Qaeda, he had contact with those responsible for the September 11 attacks."

Although Atta is believed to have been resident in Florida in the summer of 2001, he is known to have used more than a dozen aliases, and intelligence experts believe he could easily have slipped out of the US to visit Iraq.

Abu Nidal, who was responsible for the failed assassination of the Israeli ambassador to London in 1982, was based in Baghdad for more than two decades.

***************************

 

[Ithaca 37]

NY TIMES editorial

The Torture Photos

Published: May 5, 2004




It seems gloomily possible that in years to come, when people in the Middle East recall the invasion of Iraq, they will speak not of lost American lives or the toppling of a brutal dictator. The most enduring image of the occupation may be those pictures of grinning American soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners. This is the kind of outcome no one wanted, although one that the Bush administration should have worried about long ago, and taken far more care to avert. Now all the president and his top officials can do is clean up the mess and express the country's deep regrets. So far, they have accomplished neither.

By now, the images of uniformed American men and women gleefully brutalizing prisoners in exactly the manner most horrific to Muslims has been seared into the minds of television viewers around the world. Members of Congress were more than justified yesterday in worrying about the safety of American soldiers. Senators on the Armed Services Committee, furious that a report on the abuses made it to the Internet before Capitol Hill, were right to protest and demand an investigation.

The revelations from the Abu Ghraib prison called for some humility, an apology to the abused men and an immediate, full and public accounting of what happened and who was responsible. Instead, the Bush administration began one of its now-classic defensive maneuvers. President Bush and his top officials portrayed the acts as the aberrant work of a handful of men and women, even as they knew — or should have known — that the Army was conducting criminal investigations into more than 20 different incidents in Iraq and Afghanistan, many involving prisoner deaths.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who clung to euphemisms for what any reasonable person would view as torture, rejected the idea that the government had been covering up the scandal by pointing out that the military had announced the first investigation into the Abu Ghraib case in January. That is true, but no details were made public, even though many were available.

In the subsequent three and a half months, despite opening six investigations, the Pentagon made no further accounting to the public or to Congress. Indeed, a horrifying report commissioned by the Army was classified "secret," although Mr. Rumsfeld had to admit yesterday that he did not know why. Mr. Rumsfeld also said, unbelievably, that he had not yet finished reading the report on the Abu Ghraib prison. At another point he seemed to shrug off the brutal treatment of the prisoners as the sort of thing that can happen in a system that is not "perfect" — a distressing echo of his costly dismissal of the looting in Baghdad last year as the "untidiness" of freedom.

With the administration's familiar disdain for public disclosure, the Pentagon did not share the report with Congress until it was forced to do so this week, after the report was described in a New Yorker article. There are still many unanswered questions, about issues like the military's failure to train prison guards properly and the role of military intelligence and private contractors in the abuses.

With each setback and blunder in Iraq, the administration has reacted this way, cheerfully denying that anything happened and sticking to its original plans while international support for the occupation has steadily fallen to its current minimal level. Recovering from this latest horror will require a lot more than that sort of business as usual.

 

[Tom]

"they will speak not of lost American lives or the toppling of a brutal dictator. The most enduring image of the occupation may be those pictures of grinning American soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners."

That NY Times editorial comment seems a bit "perverted" to me, how about you?

 

[RockyDog]

To me the craziest photo is the woman smiling in the photo over a stack of naked guys with bags over their heads.

Muslim men consider non-muslim women evil, aka fair game for rape and killing, so to have the picture of this woman smiling over a stack of prisoners is quite an insult.

I'm not sure if I think the pic is terrible, or a great jab in the muslim fanatics eye.