Kenetrek Boots

WARNING: Student Load Forgiveness is Very Unlikely to Pay for Your Next Elk Tag

VikingsGuy said:
Standing requirements are largely court made and they make all kinds of twists and turns to hear cases they want to hear (see mootness also). They should dismiss the stupid plaintiff standing stuff, dismiss these cases and invite the Speaker of the House or the Majority Leader of the Senate to refile with acknowlegement of their essential standing in constitutional boundaries of the presidency.
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I agree.
 
406dn said:
Regarding presidential orders, I think they go back a good ways, but they are a poor way of governing.

Also, I think they are a logical outcome given how balled up the Congress is.
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Pretty much summarizes the reason the German military sat on the sideline as nazis consolidated power. I reject the premise that non-democratic action is better than democratic systems - even if they are constipated.
 
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VikingsGuy said:
Pretty much summarizes the reason the German military sat on the sideline as nazis consolidated power. I reject the premise that non-democrat action is better than democratic systems - even if they are constipated.
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For a good while now, Congress has ducked many tough issues, and presidents have taken more power as they can. I don't really like it but that is how it has played out, thru out my adult life.
 
406dn said:
As it turns out in this instance, I don't condone the forgiveness policy, and generally speaking, don't often agree with those bringing the case.

IF the court shoots it down, it will be one more instance where their reputation takes a hit, as it will be easy to demagogue. Since, I think the court has stepped on its *ick more than once the last number of years, I'll be okay with that.
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History shows that SCOTUS approval went from ~85% to ~60% over the course of the 50s/60s/70s/80s - twenty-five percent of Americans lost faith in SCOTUS as it pursued one team’s agenda. But I never once remember hearing ABC or NYTimes suggest the this big drop in SCOTUS popularity was a failing or something to be concerned about, but when it goes from ~60% to about ~40% because a different 20% of the nation doesn’t like their rulings in the last few years I find it very hard to cry sincere tears.

I do hate that only 40% are satisfied with this very essential pillar of democracy, but it is not just the most recent 20% that constitute NYTimes core readership we should care about. What about the 25% of Americans that have been screaming that the court had lost their trust for the last 40 years?

Sadly it doesn’t matter, because it has nothing to do with the court doing its job in a workman like and professional manner. It has to do with a spoiled elite that demands their way about every aspect of governance and if they don’t get it they are happy to dismantle it. And on the other side we have idiots suggesting a national divorce. It is simply embarrassing. Sadly, America has exactly the government it deserves.
 
@VikingsGuy do you agree that Biden can create new/modify repayment plans?

So my earlier point, actually student loan forgiveness is kinda small potatoes. In fact I'd agree that it doesn't matter if you have a bunch of loans. The New REPAYE is going to forgive more it's just wonky and takes time.

E.G.

Married Couple, one person has 80k in loans. They have 2 kids. Both individuals make 55k, the loan holder graduated in 2015.
Under New REPAYE that loan holder would receive $29,842 in forgiveness.

1677626118633.png

Now if the same person is single, and has 20,000 in loans they get nothing... so it benefits large loan holders, and therefore is actually better for higher income earners.

1677626504951.png


The current 10K/20k is basically Biden wanting his name on the checks visa via Trump payments.
 
Let's say a MD with $300,000 in loans making 350k, 2 kids, nonworking spouse.

$25K in forgiveness, and this isn't someone doing PSLF. If they choose to go that route the number climbs to $43,000
1677626637517.png
 
wllm said:
@VikingsGuy do you agree that Biden can create new/modify repayment plans?

So my earlier point, actually student loan forgiveness is kinda small potatoes. In fact I'd agree that it doesn't matter if you have a bunch of loans. The New REPAYE is going to forgive more it's just wonky and takes time.

E.G.

Married Couple, one person has 80k in loans. They have 2 kids. Both individuals make 55k, the loan holder graduated in 2015.
Under New REPAYE that loan holder would receive $29,842 in forgiveness.

View attachment 266657

Now if the same person is single, and has 20,000 in loans they get nothing... so it benefits large loan holders, and therefore is actually better for higher income earners.

View attachment 266658


The current 10K/20k is basically Biden wanting his name on the checks visa via Trump payments.
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I have not looked into any of this other stuff. My concern is appropriate boundaries on presidential authority, standing rules that allow policing of such boundaries, fixing a failed vision of higher education, and being honest about how we got her. At first blush I am fairly sure “New RePaye” doesn’t do anything to address any of those and feels like some cross between lipstick on a pig and vote buying (which I know goes every direction)
 
VikingsGuy said:
I have not looked into any of this other stuff. My concern is appropriate boundaries on presidential authority, standing rules that allow policing of such boundaries, fixing a failed vision of higher education, and being honest about how we got her. At first blush I am fairly sure “New RePaye” does anything to address any of those and feels like some cross between lipstick on a pig and vote buying (which I know goes every direction)
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I'm not saying it's a solution... I'm saying that this is political theater.

Biden is going to lose on student loans, and everyone will pat themselves on the back for it.

... and then New REPAYE will actually do way more forgiving because folks hate digging into student loan plans more than anything.

Devil is in the details and folks hate amortization schedules.


VikingsGuy said:
standing rules that allow policing of such boundaries
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Like having standing?

Them's the rules they should apply to everyone.
 
VikingsGuy said:
Sadly it doesn’t matter, because it has nothing to do with the court doing its job in a workman like and professional manner. It has to do with a spoiled elite that demands their way about every aspect of governance and if they don’t get it they are happy to dismantle it. And on the other side we have idiots suggesting a national divorce. It is simply embarrassing. Sadly, America has exactly the government it deserves.
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This.
 
If one was in Dem party strategy rooms 2 years ago, they were not talking about coherent higher ed funding reform. They were struggling with how to recapture political loyalty/votes from 25-35 yr olds who seem to shed some of their Dem voting patterns they displayed originally coming out of college echo chambers. They saw that the culture wars alone were insufficient with this group as they were dealing with issues like mortgages, jobs and young kids, and this was a cause that came out of now where to fill this gap. It is no different than GOP limiting deductions for blue state high income voters or “saving” coal jobs. And that I guess is how the game is played - but let’s not give one side a “but they care badge”. They both care about power, money and ego. It is simply a marketing math game to “buy” enough votes to win - with today’s demographics it serves a purpose, if voting patterns shift it could just as easily drop off the table and never be heard of again.
 
HighDesertSage said:
It's amazing to me how we as a society allow things to get so complicated. Fact: It's a loan. Fact: You have to sign a promissory note, saying you'll pay it back, to get a student loan.

Pay the damn loan back and move on with your life....
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But we do have legal systems that hold people to account for “selling a bill of goods” to another, and both Higher Ed and the Obama need to fund his medical plan on the back of students, are not ok. It’s like if you signed a loan/lease for a pickup that was defective from day one - there are lemon laws that protect you. And if the lender on that loan jacked up the rates without proper cause there are consumer finance protections there too. But the education system (public and private) and govt are the two places that can fleece their “customers” with impunity. Seems like it is worth making that point - even if the art history major was a sucker.

And that is the real story I guess. One party is so beholden to the ”ivory academy” that they are using this charade to lessen some of the damaged caused without pointing it out. Why are there not congressional hearings televised daily by the major networks on higher ed overselling like there was for S&L debacle or sub-prime debacle? Why does GOP want to give bankers a break and Dems give higher ed a break and the average schlep just takes it? And why does traditional press point out one and overlook the other?
 
Lets just look at the real problem the schools. I have a daughter in her last year of law school at a top law school. Tuition is 86K year. - 22K for grades so 64K a year.

During covid she could not attend class. So the school is closed, professors are teaching from home. The school for one year had reduced costs. But they still charged the same amount. The school has a hundred million dollar endowment. They refused to dip into it to during this time. They could have easily reduced tuition by 10 or 20% instead it actually went up.

We will pay every penny back and not looking for it to be dissolved, but the cost is getting ridiculous for these kids. the above cost is for tuition only. No room and board. I am paying just over $3k a month on rent and utilities, food on top of that.
 
I don’t support loan forgiveness in its current form without fixing the underlying problem. Colleges are bloated pigs that are jacking up prices because they know the loans are going to happen and you can’t go bankrupt on a student loan.

The same mortgage scams from 07 are happening now with SLABs.

I went to a very good state university. Got my degree as cheap as possible by using the schools network with community colleges. This school has a 3.3 billion endowment that returns on average 9% per year and had a 40% return in 2021. Guess what they are still raising price’s every year.

The best thing to do is choke off student loan supply, push trade schools and let some of the diploma mills fold. Then forgive student loans after the problem is fixed.

If this was a Fortune 500 or some other asshole donor on Wall Street about to go to 0, Congress and the fed would print more in a heartbeat.
 
VikingsGuy said:
But we do have legal systems that hold people to account for “selling a bill of goods” to another, and both Higher Ed and the Obama need to fund his medical plan on the back of students, are not ok. It’s like if you signed a loan/lease for a pickup that was defective from day one - there are lemon laws that protect you. And if the lender on that loan jacked up the rates without proper cause there are consumer finance protections there too. But the education system (public and private) and govt are the two places that can fleece their “customers” with impunity. Seems like it is worth making that point - even if the art history major was a sucker.

And that is the real story I guess. One party is so beholden to the ”ivory academy” that they are using this charade to lessen some of the damaged caused without pointing it out. Why are there not congressional hearings televised daily by the major networks on higher ed overselling like there was for S&L debacle or sub-prime debacle? Why does GOP want to give bankers a break and Dems give higher ed a break and the average schlep just takes it? And why does traditional press point out one and overlook the other?
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I see what your saying for sure, and I agree with you. But I have a hard time with any sympathy for the Art History Major with 6 figures of debt. At some point personal responsibly has to come into the equation.
 
belshawelk said:
Lets just look at the real problem the schools. I have a daughter in her last year of law school at a top law school. Tuition is 86K year. - 22K for grades so 64K a year.

During covid she could not attend class. So the school is closed, professors are teaching from home. The school for one year had reduced costs. But they still charged the same amount. The school has a hundred million dollar endowment. They refused to dip into it to during this time. They could have easily reduced tuition by 10 or 20% instead it actually went up.

We will pay every penny back and not looking for it to be dissolved, but the cost is getting ridiculous for these kids. the above cost is for tuition only. No room and board. I am paying just over $3k a month on rent and utilities, food on top of that.
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If she does reasonably well (top half) from a top law school, tuition debt is a rounding error in life time earnings. Congrats to her! If done right it is a challenging and rewarding profession.
 
VikingsGuy said:
The problems with student loans as they sit now are (a) unlimited access to debt that encouraged schools to engage in endless amenity wars to be paid by students spending money that wasn’t theirs or didn’t feel like theirs, and (b) Obamacare jacked the rates and penalties up to fund clear shortfalls in Obamacare funding projections. I am not sure how mixing this broken system with SS solves anything.
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There are limits on Federal government loans and the rates are not onerous. Your attachment of this to ACA is a bit misleading. I think it's probably the private sector loans you have issue with. Rolling it into SS give SS a higher returning asset than the treasuries it can invest in now and it gives the country a more skilled workforce. You are correct though in that it doesn't fix the problems with schools not meeting demand and instead just raising prices. There needs to be an accountability mechanism in this for schools. It would put most of the for-profit schools out of business.
 
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