WARNING: Student Load Forgiveness is Very Unlikely to Pay for Your Next Elk Tag

I believe some of the numbers being thrown around for a college degree may be a bit on the high side for some colleges. My daughter goes to NDSU for a Nursing degree. Tuition, room, and board is just a wee bit less than $20K. She took some honors and college courses in high school so will easily get out in 4 years. So $80k total (unless she goes on to specialize). She does get reciprocity. That number is pre-scholarship or grant money. She has worked hard over the summers and breaks and will continue that. She will not be debt free, but will have a very manageable debt with a well paying job.

I totally agree with the premise that your neighbors and friends play a huge role in your child's development. Although many people like the 'burbs, that is not the only path. I live 2 hours from the Twin Cities and you couldn't pay me enough to live in the suburbs. We took in a recent college basketball game down there on a weeknight, so although it may not be as convenient, it is doable. On the flip side, I can go out on any of a number of beautiful lakes were the people in the 'burbs vacation in a matter of minutes. There are many places a family can live in fairly rural areas and have a wonderful life with a nice salary. @VikingsGuy, I don't think you were trying to knock rural areas, so this isn't meant to rebut your earlier post. Just an observation.
 
MNElkNut said:
I believe some of the numbers being thrown around for a college degree may be a bit on the high side for some colleges.
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Agree. University of Wyoming is another example of a 4 yr degree that can be accomplished for a bit less than other public Universities. IMO, UW is fine school to get an engineering degree. If my sons decide to go there I will be very pleased. Couple relatively low tuition cost with the very generous Hathaway scholarships and Wyoming is finding a way to lower the bar for entry into post HS education.
 
One thought I would share. For all the Boomers and Xers trying to give well-intentioned advice to folks entering college today, things have changed a lot since we were in school. It is highly unlikely that a 2027 NDSU diploma would get my son as far as my 1988 NDSU diploma has gotten me. In competitive fields, there is a huge importance placed upon which school(s) you went to. An incoming student really needs to understand that if the highest level jobs are their ultimate goal, where they go to college will play a big role in getting a sniff of those opportunities. The 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s were the heyday for state school grads - the 2000s top roles have pulled from a much narrower set of schools.

I am not saying a person can't get a great job and lead a happy life from a misc. state school or middle-tier private school. I just want to make sure the next generation never hears, "where you go to school doesn't matter". Sadly, those days appear to be gone for the moment.
 
VikingsGuy said:
One thought I would share. For all the Boomers and Xers trying to give well-intentioned advice to folks entering college today, things have changed a lot since we were in school. It is highly unlikely that a 2027 NDSU diploma would get my son as far as my 1984 NDSU diploma has gotten me. In competitive fields, there is a huge importance placed upon which school(s) you went to. An incoming student really needs to understand that if the highest level jobs are their ultimate goal, where they go to college will play a big role in getting a sniff of those opportunities. The 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s were the heyday for state school grads - the 2000s top roles have pulled from a much narrower set of schools.

I am not saying a person can't get a great job and lead a happy life from a misc. state school or middle-tier private school. I just want to make sure the next generation never hears, "where you go to school doesn't matter". Sadly, those days appear to be gone for the moment.
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Do you feel any guilt associated to paying for your children’s school?
Would they pick the same schools/career path if you weren’t helping foot the bill?
Do you feel like you’re contributing to the price creep?
It just seems like such and insurmountable number.
It’s just seems like such a massive step up in the monopoly game of life to be gifted that kind of money opposed to someone who was not 🤷‍♂️
 
DouglasR said:
Do you feel any guilt associated to paying for your children’s school?
Click to expand...
No. For my wife and I it is a fundamental shared value that pre-dated having kids. We knew from the start that would do all we are able to set them up for the life they choose and then work to earn. Unlike other families we know, we never think about "wealth building" or "inheritance planning". We spend what we make on our children and the charities we care about now (with a modest but intentional retirement savings plan). Our kids know they are getting all we have now and there is no reason to wait around hoping our deaths will bail them out of later decisions. (I know plenty of folks who are starting to get (silently) irritated that their parents are living so long ;) ). Compared to others we know in similar circumstances it feels quite freeing.

DouglasR said:
Would they pick the same schools/career path if you weren’t helping foot the bill?
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The oldest two for sure - they just would have had mountains of debt. For the youngest, it might be a psychological barrier to try if it wasn't already built in for her.

DouglasR said:
Do you feel like you’re contributing to the price creep?
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No more than when I bought a new pickup two years ago. The market sets prices and we either pay or do not.


DouglasR said:
It just seems like such and insurmountable number.
Click to expand...
Compared to our "peers" we have significantly lower-priced cars, keep them for many more years, don't own fancy vacation homes, take far fewer fancy vacations, eat out far less frequently, and don't have the f-u money they have in the bank. And we are actually in the worst possible economic spot to pay for our kids schooling -- enough W-2 income to get zero financial support (even merit scholarships are now rarely given to "upper-income" families) but don't have the f-u money/assets that makes these relatively pain-free costs for some families. But again, a fundamental element of my marriage is that our family unit is the place we invest. We never think about the car we could have or the hunting trip I could take or how much younger we could have retired, etc, For us, this makes for a very happy and fulfilling life where our spending and our values are completely in sync. No regrets. Also, 529 accounts are great tools - start at infancy.

DouglasR said:
It’s just seems like such a massive step up in the monopoly game of life to be gifted that kind of money opposed to someone who was not 🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...
I support a more equitable system of education and do take that into account when I vote and where we chose to give to charities. But, I do not make the real world rules, and my kids do not make the real world rules. So I will play the rules I am given with all my ability for the benefit of those I love, while advocating future rules be more equitable. Itwould be a fool's errand to let one's kids suffer on some pyrrhic performative objection to a system we did not choose.
 
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VikingsGuy said:
One thought I would share. For all the Boomers and Xers trying to give well-intentioned advice to folks entering college today, things have changed a lot since we were in school. It is highly unlikely that a 2027 NDSU diploma would get my son as far as my 1988 NDSU diploma has gotten me. In competitive fields, there is a huge importance placed upon which school(s) you went to. An incoming student really needs to understand that if the highest level jobs are their ultimate goal, where they go to college will play a big role in getting a sniff of those opportunities. The 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s were the heyday for state school grads - the 2000s top roles have pulled from a much narrower set of schools.

I am not saying a person can't get a great job and lead a happy life from a misc. state school or middle-tier private school. I just want to make sure the next generation never hears, "where you go to school doesn't matter". Sadly, those days appear to be gone for the moment.
Click to expand...
I had to noodle on this one a bit. From an engineering perspective only, I am not sure that it matters a lot. If you are talking about the top of the top, the tip of the iceberg, NASA or some big, fancy, skyscraper firm, it does. But for the vast majority of graduates, NDSU plays as well as almost any. As someone who has hired many engineers for our firm (mid-sized national firm), I would actually favor an NDSU grad over a Harvard grad. Are we an outlier? I don't think so. Somewhere in the middle more like it from what I know of our industry. Nursing may be similar.

I think geography plays a huge role in this concept. Downtown Minneapolis values are much different than Brainerd or Bismarck. A firm in Chicago would likely place a high value on a Harvard degree; most likely a firm in Rapid City would not.

So I would say that there are still situations where it doesn't matter. In other situations, it certainly does. This is probably highly variable based on the tint of your glasses!

No offense to Harvard, I am sure they have great programs.
 
VikingsGuy said:
No. For my wife and I it is a fundamental shared value that pre-dated having kids. We knew from the start that would do all we are able to set them up for the life they choose and then work to earn. Unlike other families we know, we never think about "wealth building" or "inheritance planning". We spend what we make on our children and the charities we care about now (with a modest but intentional retirement savings plan). Our kids know they are getting all we have now and there is no reason to wait around hoping our deaths will bail them out of later decisions. (I know plenty of folks who are starting to get (silently) irritated that their parents are living so long ;) ). Compared to others we know in similar circumstances it feels quite freeing.


The oldest two for sure - they just would have had mountains of debt. For the youngest, it might be a psychological barrier to try if it wasn't already built in for her.


No more than when I bought a new pickup two years ago. The market sets prices and we either pay or do not.



Compared to our "peers" we have significantly lower-priced cars, keep them for many more years, don't own fancy vacation homes, take far fewer fancy vacations, eat out far less frequently, and don't have the f-u money they have in the bank. And we are actually in the worst possible economic spot to pay for our kids schooling -- enough W-2 income to get zero financial support (even merit scholarships are now rarely given to "upper-income" families) but don't have the f-u money/assets that makes these relatively pain-free costs for some families. But again, a fundamental element of my marriage is that our family unit is the place we invest. We never think about the car we could have or the hunting trip I could take or how much younger we could have retired, etc, For us, this makes for a very happy and fulfilling life where our spending and our values are completely in sync. No regrets. Also, 529 accounts are great tools - start at infancy.


I support a more equitable system of education and do take that into account when I vote and where we chose to give to charities. But, I do not make the real world rules, and my kids do not make the real world rules. So I will play the rules I am given with all my ability for the benefit of those I love, while advocating future rules be more equitable. Itwould be a fool's errand to let one's kids suffer on some pyrrhic performative objection to a system we did not choose.
Click to expand...
How are they gonna work to earn this life if they’re given a quarter million dollars?
When you’re 18, you’re your own person.
That’s when your story starts.
That’s when you take the reigns of your life.
Paying for school like this is just short dicking the whole system.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
 
MNElkNut said:
I had to noodle on this one a bit. From an engineering perspective only, I am not sure that it matters a lot. If you are talking about the top of the top, the tip of the iceberg, NASA or some big, fancy, skyscraper firm, it does. But for the vast majority of graduates, NDSU plays as well as almost any. As someone who has hired many engineers for our firm (mid-sized national firm), I would actually favor an NDSU grad over a Harvard grad. Are we an outlier? I don't think so. Somewhere in the middle more like it from what I know of our industry. Nursing may be similar.

I think geography plays a huge role in this concept. Downtown Minneapolis values are much different than Brainerd or Bismarck. A firm in Chicago would likely place a high value on a Harvard degree; most likely a firm in Rapid City would not.

So I would say that there are still situations where it doesn't matter. In other situations, it certainly does. This is probably highly variable based on the tint of your glasses!

No offense to Harvard, I am sure they have great programs.
Click to expand...
We are in complete agreement. (Although I reserve the right to offend Harvard ;) )
 
MNElkNut said:
I had to noodle on this one a bit. From an engineering perspective only, I am not sure that it matters a lot. If you are talking about the top of the top, the tip of the iceberg, NASA or some big, fancy, skyscraper firm, it does. But for the vast majority of graduates, NDSU plays as well as almost any. As someone who has hired many engineers for our firm (mid-sized national firm), I would actually favor an NDSU grad over a Harvard grad. Are we an outlier? I don't think so. Somewhere in the middle more like it from what I know of our industry. Nursing may be similar.

I think geography plays a huge role in this concept. Downtown Minneapolis values are much different than Brainerd or Bismarck. A firm in Chicago would likely place a high value on a Harvard degree; most likely a firm in Rapid City would not.

So I would say that there are still situations where it doesn't matter. In other situations, it certainly does. This is probably highly variable based on the tint of your glasses!

No offense to Harvard, I am sure they have great programs.
Click to expand...
This 100%.
 
DouglasR said:
How are they gonna work to earn this life if they’re given a quarter million dollars?
Click to expand...
The hours my daughter has worked as an ICU RN would shock even a NY lawyer. My SIL worked 3 jobs for his degree. And my son does top-level school work, coaches high school students at a national level, and volunteers with causes he cares about. In our family, you do the work that is in front of you - full effort - no complaints. How is their effort any different than a poor kid who gets a full ride to the same school? Or a kid who has loans largely forgiven by an employer or via some limited pay option @wllm keeps mentioning. Our expectation is that all 6 of us give all we are able - we have no need to feel bad about the outcomes.

DouglasR said:
When you’re 18, you’re your own person.
That’s when you take the reigns of your life.
Click to expand...

An arbitrary legal cutoff (one that frankly is less and less relevant these days - 21? 25? all kinds of rules) that means nothing to us. If our daughter needs to work for 3 or 4 more years to finish her personal work before going to college, then we would still pay when she was 22-25. The 529 funds can be accessed at any age. We are a family from birth to baptism to graduation to marriage to parenthood to the graveside - no questions asked, no apologies needed.

I have a good friend whose dad made him start paying rent on his 18th birthday (was still finishing his senior yr in high school at the time). He had means to help but chose to spout the view of '18 and on your own'. He was a miserable SOB (not saying you are) who died alone. My friend turned to my father for advice on career and family and cried harder than I did at my dad's funeral. I believe the "boot strap" narrative is a failed myth and I do not choose to use it for those I love (or in any other way).
DouglasR said:
Paying for school like this is just short dicking the whole system.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
Click to expand...
Actually, it is the opposite. The system is taking well over half a million dollars out of my pocket and giving it to poor kids to get the same education for free that my kids get. One of the very rare equalizers in life.

(this is one of the reasons "MSRP" tuition numbers are so inflated - they artificially jack up the price of tuition for the kids whose families can pay and then discount the price for poorer kids - very little of the modern "scholarship" money comes from some old alumnus, most of it come from the other kids in the class)
 
DouglasR said:
How are they gonna work to earn this life if they’re given a quarter million dollars?
Click to expand...
You are focused on the number. I view it as giving them an opportunity to get an education and better themself. What they do with that is up to them. I would never hand my daughter $250k check at 18, but I will pay for the classes she takes at the school of her choice with the expectation she works hard at it.
 
SAJ-99 said:
You are focused on the number. I view it as giving them an opportunity to get an education and better themself. What they do with that is up to them. I would never hand my daughter $250k check at 18, but I will pay for the classes she takes at the school of her choice with the expectation she works hard at it.
Click to expand...
I hadn’t even thought of that angle - but you are right, the kids aren’t getting checks.

(Although we have discussed that if we had a kid who had no interest in college, would we give them some “cash value” to start a small business or something like that. But it never came to pass so not sure exactly what we would have done.)
 
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