Utah continues push to eliminate public land

[Gerald Martin]

When all the major players in the land transfer movement share the same political ideology and religious affiliation, their religious beliefs and how they affect the rest of us becomes fair game.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Especially when those politicians’ religious and political ideology motivates them to push for policies that most benefit themselves personally and those most like them.

 

[smarandr]

Mormonism – like Islam, at the fundamentalist level is a self-serving political agenda hiding behind the protections of relevant religion.

This is a strong example of religious extremism hiding behind a political movement- in this case conservatism, and damaging the Republican Party and the lands of the entire country for its own selfish gain. Senator Lee may have an R after his name, but the Utah delegation serves the LDS church first.


This conservative Christian would like to see politicians do the work of their church on private land and off the clock.

Can you cite some mormon docrine or dogma that supports your claim?

 

[MTGomer]

Where you find the roots of the PLT movement you will find the LDS church. It’s not my job to separate the two, as it wasn’t me that decided that using religion to push a political agenda was a good way to go about things.
The people pushing PLT are Mormon and are using their interpretation of Mormonism as justification. Their interprtation of Mormonism has shaped heir world view and led them to this set of beliefs. That doesn’t mean all Mormons support PLT, or even that Mormons can’t be great public lands stewards. I only have a handful of people I hunt with. Two of them are Mormon. One, very dedicated and involved in his local church.

This isn’t a bash on mainstream Mormonism whatsoever.


I’m not interjecting religion into hunting or politics, religion has done that for itself.

 

[Gynaroo]

This is making an assumption that religion is the driving factor. This thought process of them being fair game is like the left saying that we should drag their wives and families through the dirt too because they are tied the person making the comments. Bashing religion, family, their favorite foods, military status will do nothing for our cause of public lands. If it was Mormons we would have to look at many other states as well.

Bashing their religion does nothing for our cause. I think it makes us look worse then they do. Just stick to facts like courts have long since passed law that upholds the federal governments ability to maintain public land. Done. Utah has some weird delegates that’s it.

 

[MTGomer]

Can you cite some mormon docrine or dogma that supports your claim?

Are you familiar with the history of Mormon settlement in the Great Basin and their early relationship with and views of the federal government?
This is more about the contemporary ideas coming from the church specifically in the western United States. There’s nothing in the Red Words that says ‘ye shalt deprive the commoner of lands to harvest meats from’.

I suggest reading “The Sagebrush State” by Michael Bowers. It is a Nevada history book but touches on many of these same issues with historical context

 

[smarandr]

The people pushing PLT are Mormon and are using their interpretation of Mormonism as justification.

Again, what tenant of Mormonism (or bastardized Mormonism) are they using?

 

[smarandr]

The people pushing PLT are Mormon and are using their interpretation of Mormonism as justification.

Again, what tenant of Mormonism (or bastardized Mormonism) are they using?

 

[MTGomer]

Again, what tenant of Mormonism (or bastardized Mormonism) are they using?

A large amount of the church ( like many churches) resources are put into recruitment and expansion right? Right. Look at the missionary program and family size. Nothing wrong with increasing membership and spreading the good word of God, of course.

But in Utah, the LDS church is a social and business super power, a large landowner, and positioned strongly to capitalize on any newly available land. In some areas of the state their membership is over 90% of the population. What do you think they see with the potential of all this new real estate that could come on the market?
They have the ‘investors’, pay no taxes, are rich beyond belief, and hold a monopoly on political persuasion. Religious or not, no institution this large is purely benevolent.

 

[rtraverdavis]

Can you cite some mormon docrine or dogma that supports your claim?

Here’s an article that I found to be pretty enlightening. I think it’s maybe been posted on the forum before.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...tah-public-lands-mormons-national-parks-trump

 

[Irrelevant]

Mormonism – like Islam, at the fundamentalist level is a self-serving political agenda hiding behind the protections of relevant religion.

This is a strong example of religious extremism hiding behind a political movement- in this case conservatism, and damaging the Republican Party and the lands of the entire country for its own selfish gain. Senator Lee may have an R after his name, but the Utah delegation serves the LDS church first.


This conservative Christian would like to see politicians do the work of their church on private land and off the clock.

We may have disagreed on mining but this is spot on. Thanks Gomer

 

[utah400elk]

That last article is very scary. It cuts to the heart of the argument. Some believe they have more of a right to the land than others. They believe that they “own” it more than you because of some illogical argument. I am very worried for the future.

 

[Irrelevant]

The LDS Church is one of the largest land owners in the country if you add up all their various LLCs and church sponsored businesses. Of course they want it privatized.

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Lates...on-church-Florida-s-biggest-private-landowner

 

[Gerald Martin]

For those offended by Gomer’s assertions, I’d like to make an observation that it is the tendency of human nature in any large organization with a shared worldview and ideology to have individuals who because of greed or desire for influence teach or apply a practical policy of ensuring the “faithful” have preference in the distribution of limited resources. It isn’t limited to religious groups. I see the same traits exhibited in political alliances as well. In the case of PLT, there is definitely a religious affiliation among the principle players pushing the agenda. Using religious or political causes for personal gain to the detriment of others is a manifestation of human greed and undermines the integrity and reputation of that religion or organization as well as hindering efforts that truly benefit those within and those without the group. It shouldn’t be offensive to anyone who possesses a shred of introspective honestly to recognize this exists because of human nature and someone pointing out that it is evident in an organization we identify with and appreciate is not necessarily attacking that religion or all its affiliates.

 

[smarandr]

I think it's fair to say that the Mormon church (not only the membership, but church leadership as well), has a large influence in the state's government and its laws and rules. The church also takes positions on certain social issues from time to time in what I assume is a play to influuence policy both in and out of Utah. For example it recently it came out against family separations at the border. However, to my knowledge the church has never taken a stance on public land transfer, whether it be by scriptural interpretation or through a press release.

True, the Mormon Utah delegation is pro transfer, but I don't see any evidence that it is at the direction of the Mormon church. If it was how do you explain Senator Udall (NM) or representative Simpson (ID) or Senator Reid (NV)? I guess they're dissident apostates destined for a lesser degree of glory (Mormons will find that funny).

To say that “Mormonism like Islam, at the fundamentalist level is a self-serving political agenda hiding behind the protections of relevant religion” is disingenuous at best.

We have to be able to separate the beliefs and actions of individuals who belong to an organization from the organization itself.

For the record I am LDS, you'll find me at church on (most) Sunday's, I disagree with my Church's stance on more than a couple of issues, I’m familiar with the history of my Church both good and bad, and I'm vocal when I think they're on the wrong side of something. However, in all my years attending, and after all the positions I've held, I've yet to come across a nefarious plot to disinherit the people of the United States of their public lands. But then again I’ve never been one of the cool kids, so they’re probably keeping me out of the loop on purpose.

 

[TheTone]

Is it time for the hunting community to put some pressure on some of the utah based hunting companies to either move or direct some pressure on the reps that are a real threat to their customers

 

[Gynaroo]

For those offended by Gomer’s assertions, I’d like to make an observation that it is the tendency of human nature in any large organization with a shared worldview and ideology to have individuals who because of greed or desire for influence teach or apply a practical policy of ensuring the “faithful” have preference in the distribution of limited resources. It isn’t limited to religious groups. I see the same traits exhibited in political alliances as well. In the case of PLT, there is definitely a religious affiliation among the principle players pushing the agenda. Using religious or political causes for personal gain to the detriment of others a manifestation of human greed and undermines the integrity and reputation of that group as well as hindering efforts that truly benefit those within and those without the group. It shouldn’t be offensive to anyone who possesses a shred of introspective honestly to recognize this exists because of human nature and someone pointing out that it is evident in an organization we identify with and appreciate is not necessarily attacking that religion or all its affiliates.

I’ve taken no offense to what Gomer or anyone else has said. I personally don’t see how his religion or religious beliefs are part of the discussion. I agree with others whom have stated our beliefs help mold who we are on a daily basis. I still don’t see how the religion is dictating what he is or isn’t doing. He may belong to that church but the church isn’t telling him what to do. There is nothing in the Mormon doctrine that has anything to do with Senator Lee’s asinine beliefs. I challenge you to find it. I can get on board with the assertion that his political views are driving him because of greed or a special interest. If we want to blame Mormonism we need to look at other states with large Mormon populations. These are Idaho, Arizona, California, Wyoming, and Nevada. Look at the current/past list of Mormon politicians. I know I was surprised.

Below is a link on the Mormon stand point about politics.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/official-statement/political-neutrality


Now the Bundy thing was just pure stupidity by someone who used their faith as a defense against breaking laws. The article cited above even stated the Church came out against the Bundy’s and their fight.

Now Utah definitely has problems with their politics and they absolutely have leaders that are for PLT. What gain do they have for it has yet to be determined (unless it’s been cited somewhere and I’m unaware of it). It will benefit the people with the largest pocket book.

My argument is this. Instead of talking about Utah politicians and their horrible ideas about PLT we are instead talking about their religion. It has gotten us nowhere and in my opinion brought the conversation to a low that isn’t necessary.

Call Mike Lees And other PLT advocates and tell them your thoughts. BHA posted on Facebook and Instagram today those phone numbers. Email them call them. Not bash their religion.

 

[elkduds]

Call Mike Lees And other PLT advocates and tell them your thoughts. BHA posted on Facebook and Instagram today those phone numbers. Email them call them. Not bash their religion.

Better yet, call/write your federal legislators and denounce any and all PLT efforts, and those who endorse them.


Google Sagebrush Rebellion, Cliven Bundy, Malheur, Recapture protest, GOP party platform endorsing PLT. If your GOP legislator supports the Republican National Committee official platform, then he supports public land transfer. THE RNC statement endorsing PLT is the last paragraph of page 21 here: https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL[1]-ben_1468872234.pdf.

 

[SandyCreek]

what is unfortunate is i generally agree with senator lee on many things.. sadly doesn't seem like theres a political party for me.. ill continue to support conservatives and fight them on issues like this rather than fight the libs on everything though

 

[TLowell02]

I came across this podcast series recently entitled "Bundyville" and found it fascinating and angering. I think many here would find it worth their time.

It seems while mainstream Mormonism does not proclaim to support removal of federally managed public lands, enough sects do. I had never heard of the "white horse prophecy" but it is touched on in the podcast. Scary stuff for any public land user.