Use Enough Gun

[Trap]

I believe We have moved on and the topic is now small mans syndrome I think the caliber topic was finalized with no one gaf what someone else shoots if they are ethically taking animals with it

 

[noharleyyet]

Had to fight through them just to see if it was as stupid as every other "article" the Daily Mail has ever written.

....steaming

 

[Mustangs Rule]

I believe We have moved on and the topic is now small mans syndrome I think the caliber topic was finalized with no one gaf what someone else shoots if they are ethically taking animals with it

Here, here, I second that. Let this be done.

 

[RaiderRich]

Here, here, I second that. Let this be done.

pfft this is a record setting thread, need to get to 100,000 views and 10,000 responses. Of course if it gets to out of hand I imagine @Big Fin will lock it up.

Sensible discussion on ethical caliber/hunting methods/etc. is a good thing. Discussion on compensating for deficiencies may be another issue.

 

[std7mag]

Lets face it.
I don't care if your carrying a .17, or a 20mm Vulcan...
When a skunk is on the trail ahead of you, your going the other way...

 

[EastTNHunter]

Lets face it.
I don't care if your carrying a .17, or a 20mm Vulcan...
When a skunk is on the trail ahead of you, your going the other way...

Actually, I made that mistake once… and I used enough gun. 45/70 releases a lot of skunk stink. Ask me how I know

 

[sm53wj53]

Ok, Mustangs Rule ``For me a 6.5x55 is pretty minimal,,,, more is better.``Is a double barrel 600 Nitro Express big enough or do you go 700 NE? Wayne

 

[ZBulls93]

Brakes make for comfortable shooting, this make for confident shots. Obviously it’s all preference. Good luck!

 

[RevJim]

I agree zbull. I've used brakes with side ports for years, as long as folks stayed behind me and not "beside me/front of me", no issues. I always warned folks to stay away from me, don't crowd me! ha I also told every guide/outfitter that "if I want you to start shooting I'll tell you"! I never hunted bear, but even in that, communication "before" you get in tangle is just common sense to me.












1

 

[Don Fischer]

I think what is minimal will boil down to the ability of the user. I seldom recommend a 243 for deer but have shot three deer with one with one shot each. Seems to contradict what I'm saying. I think for deer about the smallest I've ever recommended is 25 cal for the heavier bullet. I believe the best place to actually start looking for hunting cartridges is 6.5 and then there for the bullet's. Use a lighter bullet like an 87gr 24 cal and while it certainly will work and well, the kill zone changes with the more fragile bullet. Drop down to a 22 cal and again the kill zone changes if your to make a good shot. Problem being the lighter bullet's at higher velocity may well lack the ability needed on one shot while a larger cal with heavier bullet could well be more than needed on the same shot. Seems to me in the end it get's pretty confusing and the less a guy knows about killing the better off he'll be with something a bit bigger using better bullet's. One guy takes his 243 and places the bullet perfectly for the bullet and drops the animal right there. Next guy takes what might actually be to much cartridge and bullet, places it badly and the animal runs off. So next time he increases power over what he can't shoot in the first place and the problem continues. Knew a guy in Montana got himself a 7mm Rem Mag for elk, he was sure it would be no problem. After wounding several and having them run off, he proclaimed the 7mm not worth a darn and got himself a 458 Wim Mag and figured his problem was solved, didn't work out the way he'd planned! What he should have replaced the 7mm mag with was something he could shoot and then learn how to shoot a killing shot. I read all the time about the need for this cartridge or that to keep an animal from running off. And then there's the guy taking the long shot the last day with just minutes left to shoot. There are many among us that are afraid to lose so we over gun ourselves and are willing to take shot's we not qualified to take in the first place! Idea being of course we are great shot's we just need enough gun to get the job done! Bad thinking I believe. a rifle or cartridge does not make up for lack of skill shooting and recognizing a bad shot and taking that hail Mary shot is about as unethical as it can get.

No doubt in my mind the 243 is a good deer killer n fact if it was what I had to shoot a moose there would be a dead moose. But you have to be willing to call the shot in the first place and make that shot. hear a lot about the animal that was well hit and rand off anyway. Animal was not well hit, the shooter used poor judgment in selecting the shot using what he had for a cartridge. and or was probably no practiced enough to make the shot in the first place no matter what he used. There are reason's animals run off and it is seldom the fault of the cartridge, 99.9% of the time it is the shooter's fault. There are a good many poor shooter's in this country! Fewer cartridge's not capable!

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Hello Don,

I am amazed this post topic has gone on this long with so many response.

Here again is my flagship story in this topic.



One day about 20 years ago I went out to the 3,000 acre barley ranch in my 35 Whelen. That was as I recall, a Saturday. I had just got it back from the gunsmith who replaced the 30-06 barrel with a 35 Whelen.



I had it parkerized, a cool look with a decent walnut stock and a commercial not military Belgium FN mauser.



I had loaded up some rounds with 255 grain bullets and was sighting it in. It had a fixed 3X El Paso Weaver scope on it.



The barely had all been harvested and it seemed the wild boar, many of black Russian stock had moved elsewhere.



The Peruvian sheep herders had brought their sheep in and were living in a classic sheep herders trailer.



I had just wrapped up my shooting, when almost a mile away and I saw a rather large black boar coming across the level ranch land. It was heading for a boundary where no hunting or recovery was allowed.



My mind did the math. I was in a little Saturn sedan. Had no intention of hunting really but there was my chance.



I put three rounds in the magazine, chamber empty, bolt open and I put the rifle in my front passenger seat. The dirt road was smooth. I drove so fast I had a rooster tail of dust high and behind me. Pigs are smart, and see about as good as we do.



The boar stared running full out, a little cloud of dust behind him.



I picked my time to stop, got out my 35 Whelen. I put my right hip into my car, put my left elbow on my left hip silhouette shooting style and started tracking the fast but evenly running boar.



I shot him a little back, high right behind the last rib as he was running broad side to me matbe 50 yards away



At my shot his legs folded up under him,,,and that pig really did fly for about 15 feet then crashed with a cloud of dust just before the fence. He was about 300 pounds.



Dressing him out I could see that the heavy bullet just destroyed the kidney, pancreas live area and must have sent huge shock to the spine.



My minimum caliber for deer is the 6.5 Swede. For Elk the .270, but only with Barnes bullets. For wild boar, heavy 7mm bullets in either the 7x57, 280 or 280AI,,,but the 30-06 is better and the 35 Whelen is dream come true, especially in tall barely.



I knew a rancher who had a big Russian boar use his sharp tusks to “unzip” a horses belly,,,guts falling out. “Use enough gun!” and pistols do not count. As with a bear, that slanted thick skull can have a bullet angle off. I never yet saw an African PH with a pistol for backup.

I repeat, “Use Enough Gun” and know to use it; fast, up close and personal.

MR

 

[Don Fischer]

I believe you and I think a lot alike. I've though about the 35 Whelan over the years but don't know if I could handle the recoil, I understand it's fairly stout. About that 6.5x55 you have, got the same thing and love it. Only mod 70 I've ever had! For elk I pretty much stick to my 30-06 these days with a 180gr bullet, has served me well. before I finally went to it I was using my 6.5x06 with 140gr bullet's and can't complain at all. So much of the ability of the cartridge falls on the shooter and don't really hear about that enough. I keep thinking back to the Indian lady in Canada that now has the #2 Grizzly and killed it with a 22RF long in a single shot! I mention it probably to much but she is a perfect example of what can be done if you know your load and game and how to use the load. I wouldn't even think of trying that and sounds to me like with her, just another day! I think she's a terrific example of what can be done by someone that really understands how to kill with what they have!

Your telling about the African PH that doesn't carry a hand gun for a back up is right on in my book. I read about the guys carrying a hand gun in grizzly country for protection and always get this image of some guy with some 300 mag that get charged and throws his rifle on the ground to save his skin from the bear with his handgun! Blows my mind. I'm pretty sure that the handgun come's in as a last resort but have to wonder how many people reading this stuff realize it. Myself I would prefer my old Rem 660 in 308 with it's 2 3/4x Redfield and 200gr bullet over any handgun at any range. Couple years ago I read about a guy in alaska claimed he saved a couple kids life by shooting a bear stalking them at 800yds! 800 yds! Little off with the shot and two kids have a wounded bear to deal with! If he really did that he should just shut up about it and be glad it turned out well. Now someone reads that and try's to pull the same stunt and blow's it, some kids might die that maybe otherwise wouldn't have. Something I do when I get ready to shoot something is get to where I'm really comfortable with the range and turn myself into an assassin. That I believe I owe the animal!

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Back at you Don.

Regarding the recoil oh thw Whelen. It can be fierce, but mich more so with heavy lead coe bullets

I use .225, 200 and even 180 TTSX Barnes bullets. One of the other hightech advantage of Barnes is lighter bullets just kick so much less.

I cringe at shooting my old 250 grainers but the 200's are almost...almost cake walk and are such great and efficoent killers, and I can serve a meal of my hunted meat to a pregnant woman without the very real concerns of frangible lea core bullets.


and two other importants things,,,,Hmmmm better save them for later. A busy day here. THank you very much for such in detail and full of real experinece responses.

MR

 

[JEB]

My personal mins for Antelope would be a center fire .22cal. For Deer(whitetail or mule) is a 6mm bullet...doesn't really matter from what. For Elk it's a .277 and 140gr premium hunting bullet.

Having grown up in Wyoming and living/hunting out west, Canada and Alaska...I've had the opportunity to see a lot of game alive and dead. As well as talk to many of the professional guides who assist hunters in such things. Overall from them I've gotten the following(in a nut shell) Yes, bring ENOUGH rifle, but not too much. A number of guides I've talked to tell of "flatlanders" coming out west(or north) toting carryable canons which they cannot accurately shoot. A couple of guides DIScourage large, heavy recoil magnums in fact. They'll tell their clients flat out, stick to a .270/280/30-06 class rifle which the hunter is not afraid of. A WELL PLACED shot from any of them is more than sufficient to take game of any size at reasonable distances. That's another keyword; REASONABLE. An ethical hunter will always attempt to close distance to their prey. Taking pot shots across a canyon at 700 yards is just that...a pot shot. No matter how well you do at a range regardless of position...you'll have two things working against you out in the field; you may not have time to grab a rangefinder and set up for the perfect shot and unlike many ranges which may have berms and flags...reading variable winds may be much more difficult. The majority of my hunting has been done with my .243, .270, 7mm-08, .280 and .444Marlin(always take it as "dark/heavy cover" backup). I have used a .300WM many years ago when I headed up to Alaska for a moose hunt, but if I were to do it again, I'd simply carry my .280 loaded with 175 Nosler Partitions because I know I'm not going to be asked to shoot over 200yds in the area I hunted.

Just my 2¢...Everyone has their own personal mins/limits based on their training and experience. Doesn't mean there's really ANY "right" or "wrong" answer so long as common sense and ethics are kept in the forefront!

I'm actually heading to the range early tomorrow to work up some 140gr loads in my 7mm-08 as I'm taking my niece out Elk hunting with me in two years and I want to give her plenty of time to practice!

Have a good weekend...

 

[HeadedWest]

I’ve used 30-06 and .270 a ton for elk. I’ve seen absolutely no difference in performance between the two. Shoot them in the lungs at under 100 yards; they go 50 yards and tip over

Amen

 

[HeadedWest]

Who will take the bait and wrestle him next?

View attachment 175508

When I jump in with that pig, he won't know which ways up, when mud is coming from his ears.

 

[HeadedWest]

Really...funny how I hear about this, then the reality of what I actually personally witness.

Poor/non-existent blood trails? Not in my experience, but have "only" been shooting a 6mm/.243 for 40+ years.

My nephews cow elk, one shot with a .243 and 100 grain solid base, 360ish yards. Only shot he's ever taken at an elk.

Non-existent blood trail? Not on this elk it wasn't...took the picture about 3-4 steps from where he hit it:

Shot this cow with my 6mm year before last, 110 yards with a 95 grain nosler ballistic tip...

IIRC, I've shot about a half dozen elk with a .243/6mm and never have had a bad deal...I'd have to review my notes, but I've shot a couple semi-trucks full of pronghorn and deer with them. Also shot one black bear and a bighorn sheep with it. Can't recall not having good blood trails. I did lose one deer with a 6mm, made a horrible choice shooting at a moving whitetail, offhand at about 120 yards. Hit it very low through the brisket on the near side, busted the off shoulder near the body. That's what happens when you shoot animals on the "edges"...and it would have been the same outcome no matter if I would have shot it there with my .338.

The .243/6mm is a great deer and pronghorn round...and I'm not one bit scared to shoot elk with them either, BTDT.

Convinced me!

 

[HeadedWest]

And you forgot: no bloodshot mess when you skin that deer shot with a 45-70. Won't get the same result with a .243! 45-70 isn't a long range calibre but getting up close and personal is real hunting. Good choice. What's not to like?

In thick timber for Elk, I'll be using my 45-70.

 

[Alaska Bush Hunter]

Yes the Barnes X bullets do make good killers in smaller cal like the .224 in 5.56 with the 62gr TSX harvested a lot caribou with AR15 with this bullet.

 

[Farmerj]

Placement and bullet performance are more critical than size.