Caribou Gear

Use Enough Gun

I’ve had hogs run after being shot between the eyes with a 300gr XTP from a 44mag at 15yds. The worst track I ever dealt with was a double lung shot on a deer from a 180gr Corelokt out of my 300 win mag. Never had a tracking job with any animal shot by a 100gr Corelokt or Interlock from my 243. Never had a tracking job from 300gr SGK from my 375 Ruger either. Had hogs run after being shot by an arrow and had hogs drop after being shot by an arrow.

I just try to take things into account and make the best shot I can. I’m not a “let’s see how small of a gun I can use to take this animal” guy but I’ll also say I never realized how overkill a 30-06 can be until I killed a deer with a 243.
 
Enough gun?
Tiny, fast bullets kill deer just as dead as big fat bullets.
Little fast bullets carry a LOT of hydrostatic shock. The blood shot a LOT of meat.
Big fat, slow bullets bore holes, kill game but don't blood shot meat. You can eat right up to the bullet hole.
I've killed deer with a .22 Hornet and a T/C
.54 Renegade and lots of stuff in between.
For "meat", give me a big old fat, slow moving slug.
For just out and out killing deer without regard to meat destruction and key in on accuracy. I'll take a .270 Win with a Sierra 130 gr BTSP. Properly applied, I've never had it fail me.

Calibers, case capacities, muzzle velocities, bullet weights and twist rates are all M-O-O-T. Meaning they don't amount to a hill of beans.
WHERE your preferred projectile enters the target animal and the tissues, nerves and organs it disrupts and damages is vitally (pun intended!) important.

P.S. bullet diameter CAN NOT compensate for bullet placement.

Enough gun:
A caliber you can shoot comfortably enough to place the bullet accurately, consistently.
 
Otto Matic said:
Enough gun?
Tiny, fast bullets kill deer just as dead as big fat bullets.
Little fast bullets carry a LOT of hydrostatic shock. The blood shot a LOT of meat.
Big fat, slow bullets bore holes, kill game but don't blood shot meat. You can eat right up to the bullet hole.
I've killed deer with a .22 Hornet and a T/C
.54 Renegade and lots of stuff in between.
For "meat", give me a big old fat, slow moving slug.
For just out and out killing deer without regard to meat destruction and key in on accuracy. I'll take a .270 Win with a Sierra 130 gr BTSP. Properly applied, I've never had it fail me.

Calibers, case capacities, muzzle velocities, bullet weights and twist rates are all M-O-O-T. Meaning they don't amount to a hill of beans.
WHERE your preferred projectile enters the target animal and the tissues, nerves and organs it disrupts and damages is vitally (pun intended!) important.

P.S. bullet diameter CAN NOT compensate for bullet placement.

Enough gun:
A caliber you can shoot comfortably enough to place the bullet accurately, consistently.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your response. It is clear that you are a hunter with extensive personal experince.


For decades I lived on “Sky Island”, an isolated small mountain range rising up out of the low desert.



I made a map of many dozens of deer bed sites.



Often I would wear two sets of heavy wool socks, no shoes, and very quiet wool pants and with the wind in my face, I would sneak up on one bedding site after another. Some I even groomed of projecting twigs/brish far in advance of huntimg season.



I took so many deer that way. They might pop up,,,then bang,,,or they might explode and begin to run away. One of my signature shots was putting a heavy bullet high behind the last rib as they just started angling away. Real up close and personal hunting



The least caliber I would do that with was my 6.5x55 Swede with a heavy long 160 grain round nosed bullet. It would go diagonal right through a deer. Game over!



When I lived in Wyoming I hunted elk in the thick dark timber. My minimum cartridge was a .270 loaded with 180 grain Barnes Original. It was not terribly accurate but goods heavens did it kill quickly with little meat damage. I also liked the 35 Whelen for such doings.


Hunting can offer up no end of odd situations. I still cannot understand why hunters go afield with calibers that can only kill cleanly with under the most ideal circumstances.

I guess I just spent too much time hunting deer, antelope and elk in Grizzly country to ever consider shooting pipsqueak calibers


I just do not get it ??????????????????????????? It seems absurd to go hunting and be ballistically disadvantaged.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MR
 
Mustangs Rule said:
Use Enough Gun

The last elk I shot was a cow, taken about 190 yards away. An easy shot. Just as I fired, and elk behind her, moved closer and she hopped forward. There was nothing I could have changed at that point. Had she waited a full second later to jump, my bullet would have gone through both lungs. Had she jumped a second earlier, I would not have fired yet and would have readjusted my aim.

As it was my bullet ended up hitting her right in her hip and going right through and destroying both joints.

She was a two legged elk and down. I shot her with a 300 win mag and a 168 grain TTSX Barnes bullet.

I shot her within the last one or two minutes of legal hunting time. If I had used a much lesser round she would have been a 3 legged elk and have gotten away.

I have a friend who did all his deer hunting with a .243. Many times I commented that he was not using enough gun to deal with a problem if it arose. He liked neck shots, which I do not. There is too little margin for error compared the heart lung area. I prefer the high double lung shot best of all.

Anyway, his little .243 bullet hit the bucks shoulder blade, broke up and did not penetrate. The deer ran away. Left public land and entered private land where the owner hated hunters and it turned in a real mess.

When I read posts about using absolute minimum calibers, like any .25 as an all around deer/elk rifle, or hunting deer or boar with a .223, I just wonder why anyone would choose a caliber that left so little, if any margin for error.

One day I was hunting a 3,000 acre barley ranch. I was on a very well used boar trail. My eye caught the tips of a big boars ears and I dropped flat. The wind was with me and I used a little scrap of rabbitbush for cover, the boar that came in was beyond huge. Later after being gutted he weighed in about 330 pounds. As he came straight in he offered no shot at all. His jaw was covering his chest and shooting at the thick sloped skull was iffy. As he approached me he was opening and closing his mouth.

Just as his mouth opened and his jaw dropped. I put a 160 grain bullet from my 280 right down his throat at no more than 50 yards. It went all the way through into his lungs and he rolled over and spouted light colored lung blood two feet in the air,,,just like a whale

For deer, I think any 6.5 would be using enough gun. I have a 6.5x55 Swede in a model 70 and always liked those 160 grain round nosed bullets. They had working clout.

For elk, a 7mm Rem mag or it’s ballistic equal the 280AI (which I now have)would be my minimum. In both of these choices I am assuming the use of premium bullets. I have found the Barnes TTSX bullets to be so lethal, I use 150 grain TTSX for longer work and have heavy round nosed Lapua bullets when up close and personal

In times past I used to live in Northwestern Wyoming and hunted bushels of Antelope when over the counter tags for residents were easy.

I did use a .270 for them on the flats and way up in the mortician meadows,,,Grizz country. I used to load the 180 round nosed Barnes Originals. The twist was not ideal for long range work but I had other lighter bullets for such srvice. Those bullets looked like half a pencil and would penetrate forever.

I still do not understand this clinging to flat, fast tiny bullets.

Shot placement is ideal an theoretical. Real world situations always afford surprises.

MR

USE ENOUGH GUN On Hunting Big Game: Robert Ruark, Stuart Rose: 9781199348791: Amazon.com: Books

USE ENOUGH GUN On Hunting Big Game [Robert Ruark, Stuart Rose] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. USE ENOUGH GUN On Hunting Big Game
www.amazon.com
Click to expand...
So this story about the failed 243 shot makes me wonder. Oh, I am not a big fan of the 243 as a deer cartridge but if it was all I had I'd use in in a sec. maybe if your friend had used a different bullet or chose a different shot the outcome would have been different. The 243 did not fail, the user did! Pretty much all failure's blamed on either cartridge or bullet are actually user failure's! What is most important is knowing how to use what you have and when and what shot to pass up!
 
Don Fischer said:
So this story about the failed 243 shot makes me wonder. Oh, I am not a big fan of the 243 as a deer cartridge but if it was all I had I'd use in in a sec. maybe if your friend had used a different bullet or chose a different shot the outcome would have been different. The 243 did not fail, the user did! Pretty much all failure's blamed on either cartridge or bullet are actually user failure's! What is most important is knowing how to use what you have and when and what shot to pass up!
Click to expand...
Hard to argue with common sense! 😀!
 
Ben Lamb said:
After reading this thread, I'm more convinced than ever that I need a double rifle in 450-400 NE. It's obviously the best all around cartridge for N.A.
Click to expand...
This is a debate that will never be solved, but if you do go hunt the Dark Continent, they won't let you shoot their large game with a 6.5 Creedmoor.
 
shrapnel said:
This is a debate that will never be solved, but if you do go hunt the Dark Continent, they won't let you shoot their large game with a 6.5 Creedmoor.
Click to expand...

Only thing dangerous in Africa I want to shoot is a Cape Buffalo.

But I'll be damned if I get accused of not having enough gun for the occasional whitetail doe.
 
Mustangs Rule said:
Use Enough Gun

The last elk I shot was a cow, taken about 190 yards away. An easy shot. Just as I fired, and elk behind her, moved closer and she hopped forward. There was nothing I could have changed at that point. Had she waited a full second later to jump, my bullet would have gone through both lungs. Had she jumped a second earlier, I would not have fired yet and would have readjusted my aim.

As it was my bullet ended up hitting her right in her hip and going right through and destroying both joints.

She was a two legged elk and down. I shot her with a 300 win mag and a 168 grain TTSX Barnes bullet.

I shot her within the last one or two minutes of legal hunting time. If I had used a much lesser round she would have been a 3 legged elk and have gotten away.

I have a friend who did all his deer hunting with a .243. Many times I commented that he was not using enough gun to deal with a problem if it arose. He liked neck shots, which I do not. There is too little margin for error compared the heart lung area. I prefer the high double lung shot best of all.

Anyway, his little .243 bullet hit the bucks shoulder blade, broke up and did not penetrate. The deer ran away. Left public land and entered private land where the owner hated hunters and it turned in a real mess.

When I read posts about using absolute minimum calibers, like any .25 as an all around deer/elk rifle, or hunting deer or boar with a .223, I just wonder why anyone would choose a caliber that left so little, if any margin for error.

One day I was hunting a 3,000 acre barley ranch. I was on a very well used boar trail. My eye caught the tips of a big boars ears and I dropped flat. The wind was with me and I used a little scrap of rabbitbush for cover, the boar that came in was beyond huge. Later after being gutted he weighed in about 330 pounds. As he came straight in he offered no shot at all. His jaw was covering his chest and shooting at the thick sloped skull was iffy. As he approached me he was opening and closing his mouth.

Just as his mouth opened and his jaw dropped. I put a 160 grain bullet from my 280 right down his throat at no more than 50 yards. It went all the way through into his lungs and he rolled over and spouted light colored lung blood two feet in the air,,,just like a whale

For deer, I think any 6.5 would be using enough gun. I have a 6.5x55 Swede in a model 70 and always liked those 160 grain round nosed bullets. They had working clout.

For elk, a 7mm Rem mag or it’s ballistic equal the 280AI (which I now have)would be my minimum. In both of these choices I am assuming the use of premium bullets. I have found the Barnes TTSX bullets to be so lethal, I use 150 grain TTSX for longer work and have heavy round nosed Lapua bullets when up close and personal

In times past I used to live in Northwestern Wyoming and hunted bushels of Antelope when over the counter tags for residents were easy.

I did use a .270 for them on the flats and way up in the mortician meadows,,,Grizz country. I used to load the 180 round nosed Barnes Originals. The twist was not ideal for long range work but I had other lighter bullets for such srvice. Those bullets looked like half a pencil and would penetrate forever.

I still do not understand this clinging to flat, fast tiny bullets.

Shot placement is ideal an theoretical. Real world situations always afford surprises.

MR

USE ENOUGH GUN On Hunting Big Game: Robert Ruark, Stuart Rose: 9781199348791: Amazon.com: Books

USE ENOUGH GUN On Hunting Big Game [Robert Ruark, Stuart Rose] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. USE ENOUGH GUN On Hunting Big Game
www.amazon.com
Click to expand...
This is a timely post, been thinking of getting a new firearm for elk / moose(?). This may help the decision making process - or add frustrations and cause me to stick with my bow :)
 
I’ve never been a big fan of the .243, it kills fine but where we hunt whitetails the brush is so thick & thorny if you don’t get a real good blood trail recovery can be difficult to say the least. My daughter shoots a .243 hand loaded with 80 grain Barnes TTSX’s and usually it gets full penetration and there is somewhat of a blood trail - those bullets have caused me to warm to the caliber a little. In more open country where you can see where an animal runs I would be less hesitant to use smaller calibers - a hole in both lungs kills every time but if there is no exit finding the dead animal in heavy cover is extremely difficult. I’ve personally always had great success with .30 calibers punching a hole that bleeds well from both sides and makes recovery easier.
 
Don Fischer said:
So this story about the failed 243 shot makes me wonder. Oh, I am not a big fan of the 243 as a deer cartridge but if it was all I had I'd use in in a sec. maybe if your friend had used a different bullet or chose a different shot the outcome would have been different. The 243 did not fail, the user did! Pretty much all failure's blamed on either cartridge or bullet are actually user failure's! What is most important is knowing how to use what you have and when and what shot to pass up!
Click to expand...
Em-Ar Fischer - very nicely stated.
Same I-deer, "little" different perspective! LOL!
I was raised on a farm. First time I went hunting with my dad was at age 3. I'm 70 now.

I learned a lot in those environs.

Quick story first.
A 6th grader in NYC decided to kill his teacher. He lagged behind at the end of class and on the way out of the room, stabbed the teacher in the back.
She turned around and looked at him!
It scared him so badly, he ran away.
Arrested, they asked him why he ran.
Having watched TOO much TV, he had expected the woman to just fall over dead, NOT turn around and look at him!

As a livestock owner, it becomes necessary to "put down" an animal.
The largest I've put down was a mare that ran about 1500 pounds.
The task was accomplished quickly and cleanly with a Ruger MKIV .22LR.
I have helped trail whitetails that you would swear should have bled out.
The craziest tracking job I ever help on, guy shot a buck with a .30-30 Win at about 200 yards.
Buck jumped straight up, kicked and ran.
A fist full of white (belly?) hair marked where the buck was standing.
About 4 hours later, we finally found him.
The shot had not hit any major bones, organs or major muscles. What it did ;was sever his penis and he bled out!
I can just about guarantee that if you gut shoot a whitetail deer with a .460 Wby Mag, it WILL run off.

Point:
Put a substantial bullet where it belongs, the deed is done.
Miss your kill zone, even by a few millimeters, and bullet speed, diameter and weight don't amount to a hill of beans.

You're right Mr. Fischer, the failure wasn't the .243....!

...and that's all I've got to say about that!
 
I have always been a good shot and then I joined the Marines where it just got better. Please don't misunderstand me, I have certainly missed before (usually right after a say something like this). Almost all of my misses were my misses not the weapon. I do have friends however, that are not good shots. I have seen a lot of animals killed with a .243 and a lot of them crippled with the same. All the crippled ones were from bad shots given the conditions or range, and I don't think it was the round's fought. Given the right conditions, I would think that a .22 LR can kill a bull elk. I think that the better question would be, what would be the ideal round for a specific large game animal considering variable conditions, risk of speed shooting, training and abilities?
 
thebestusernamesaretaken said:
I have always been a good shot and then I joined the Marines where it just got better. Please don't misunderstand me, I have certainly missed before (usually right after a say something like this). Almost all of my misses were my misses not the weapon. I do have friends however, that are not good shots. I have seen a lot of animals killed with a .243 and a lot of them crippled with the same. All the crippled ones were from bad shots given the conditions or range, and I don't think it was the round's fought. Given the right conditions, I would think that a .22 LR can kill a bull elk. I think that the better question would be, what would be the ideal round for a specific large game animal considering variable conditions, risk of speed shooting, training and abilities?
Click to expand...
Yes sir!
Two thoughts come to mind:

1) the best laid plans of mice and men often go astray

2) Murphy's Law - if anything can go wrong, it will ... and at THE most inopportune time.

BTW! Thank you for your service.
 
thebestusernamesaretaken said:
I have always been a good shot and then I joined the Marines where it just got better. Please don't misunderstand me, I have certainly missed before (usually right after a say something like this). Almost all of my misses were my misses not the weapon. I do have friends however, that are not good shots. I have seen a lot of animals killed with a .243 and a lot of them crippled with the same. All the crippled ones were from bad shots given the conditions or range, and I don't think it was the round's fought. Given the right conditions, I would think that a .22 LR can kill a bull elk. I think that the better question would be, what would be the ideal round for a specific large game animal considering variable conditions, risk of speed shooting, training and abilities?
Click to expand...
If most would be truly honest it's probably a lot shorter distance and a much less recoil than we are currently using...
 
1_pointer said:
If most would be truly honest it's probably a lot shorter distance and a much less recoil than we are currently using...
Click to expand...
At this point in my life, I've gotten about as far from recoil as I can.
AR15 in 6.8mm Rem SPC.
Max range (for me , not the gun! LOL!) is +/-200 yards.
If I'm THAT hungry, I'll go to the grocery store! LOVE venison, don't need a freezer full.
 
A situation happened this past hunting season at friends family deer camp where a whitetail was crippled and not recovered by a younger member. In this group anyone under the age of 60 is younger! I've been friends with this family and hunting with them on and off for about 20 years. It's mostly PA pipeline hunting where they set themselves up where they can see a long ways off but, none of them have a history of actually hitting what they aim at over 200 yards. They tend to start their teenagers and younger adult hunters off with a .243 but I had to recommend that they bump up based on their ability to misjudge the shot and wound a deer. They initially got upset with me suggesting something outside of tradition because a .243 is known to be a good deer rifle. They were right of course but only within the individual shooters constraints. I modified my recommendation to more range time or a heavy damaging round that will attempt to make up for shooting mistakes.

I generally don't like this stump sitting type of hunting or the quick shooting still hunting but deer camp has it's own rewards outside of the actual hunting. So much so that one guy went up the mountain without any rounds at all :). I just wish they were better shots.
 
thebestusernamesaretaken said:
A situation happened this past hunting season at friends family deer camp where a whitetail was crippled and not recovered by a younger member. In this group anyone under the age of 60 is younger! I've been friends with this family and hunting with them on and off for about 20 years. It's mostly PA pipeline hunting where they set themselves up where they can see a long ways off but, none of them have a history of actually hitting what they aim at over 200 yards. They tend to start their teenagers and younger adult hunters off with a .243 but I had to recommend that they bump up based on their ability to misjudge the shot and wound a deer. They initially got upset with me suggesting something outside of tradition because a .243 is known to be a good deer rifle. They were right of course but only within the individual shooters constraints. I modified my recommendation to more range time or a heavy damaging round that will attempt to make up for shooting mistakes.

I generally don't like this stump sitting type of hunting or the quick shooting still hunting but deer camp has it's own rewards outside of the actual hunting. So much so that one guy went up the mountain without any rounds at all :). I just wish they were better shots.
Click to expand...
IME "heavy damaging round" comes with more recoil resulting in more misplaced shots...
 
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