Use Enough Gun

[rtraverdavis]

Anyone ever mess with Four Loko or Jooze before the caffeine content was regulated?

 

[rwc101]

I didn't know what Four Loko was when a "friend" handed me one at a party freshman year of college. He said it was an energy drink we could use as a mixer to get rid of some nasty Burnette's vodka. Next thing I remember I'm back in my dorm with my pockets filled with dime bags of weed and more money than I started the night with.

 

[rtraverdavis]

I didn't know what Four Loko was when a "friend" handed me one at a party freshman year of college. He said it was an energy drink we could use as a mixer to get rid of some nasty Burnette's vodka. Next thing I remember I'm back in my dorm with my pockets filled with dime bags of weed and more money than I started the night with.

Yup. That’s the stuff.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I didn't know what Four Loko was when a "friend" handed me one at a party freshman year of college. He said it was an energy drink we could use as a mixer to get rid of some nasty Burnette's vodka. Next thing I remember I'm back in my dorm with my pockets filled with dime bags of weed and more money than I started the night with.

And it wasn't your worst night either.

This reminds me of a certain evening with a 5th of Burnett's Cherry Flavored Vodka, and a very difficult walk back to my crappy basement apt. somewhere around 1993.

 

[noharleyyet]

Grapejuice and everclear....how to make eyesight and friends disappear

 

[rwc101]

And it wasn't your worst night either.

This reminds me of a certain evening with a 5th of Burnett's Cherry Flavored Vodka, and a very difficult walk back to my crappy basement apt. somewhere around 1993.

Ours was peach. Still shudder when I think of it.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Grapejuice and everclear....how to make eyesight and friends disappear

Post college - I lived in a house with about 11 other people, all working on our graduate degree in degeneracy. One afternoon, during a typical summer bbq of 50 people & 50 bottles of anything, someone decided to push a bottle of everclear into a watermelon, then light it on fire. The ensuing firebomb ensured our deposit was gone for ever, much like the top 1/2 of the kitchen island that was destroyed by the watermelon bomb.

 

[Taxed in Maine]

Use Enough Gun

The last elk I shot was a cow, taken about 190 yards away. An easy shot. Just as I fired, and elk behind her, moved closer and she hopped forward. There was nothing I could have changed at that point. Had she waited a full second later to jump, my bullet would have gone through both lungs. Had she jumped a second earlier, I would not have fired yet and would have readjusted my aim.

As it was my bullet ended up hitting her right in her hip and going right through and destroying both joints.

She was a two legged elk and down. I shot her with a 300 win mag and a 168 grain TTSX Barnes bullet.

I shot her within the last one or two minutes of legal hunting time. If I had used a much lesser round she would have been a 3 legged elk and have gotten away.

I have a friend who did all his deer hunting with a .243. Many times I commented that he was not using enough gun to deal with a problem if it arose. He liked neck shots, which I do not. There is too little margin for error compared the heart lung area. I prefer the high double lung shot best of all.

Anyway, his little .243 bullet hit the bucks shoulder blade, broke up and did not penetrate. The deer ran away. Left public land and entered private land where the owner hated hunters and it turned in a real mess.

When I read posts about using absolute minimum calibers, like any .25 as an all around deer/elk rifle, or hunting deer or boar with a .223, I just wonder why anyone would choose a caliber that left so little, if any margin for error.

One day I was hunting a 3,000 acre barley ranch. I was on a very well used boar trail. My eye caught the tips of a big boars ears and I dropped flat. The wind was with me and I used a little scrap of rabbitbush for cover, the boar that came in was beyond huge. Later after being gutted he weighed in about 330 pounds. As he came straight in he offered no shot at all. His jaw was covering his chest and shooting at the thick sloped skull was iffy. As he approached me he was opening and closing his mouth.

Just as his mouth opened and his jaw dropped. I put a 160 grain bullet from my 280 right down his throat at no more than 50 yards. It went all the way through into his lungs and he rolled over and spouted light colored lung blood two feet in the air,,,just like a whale

For deer, I think any 6.5 would be using enough gun. I have a 6.5x55 Swede in a model 70 and always liked those 160 grain round nosed bullets. They had working clout.

For elk, a 7mm Rem mag or it’s ballistic equal the 280AI (which I now have)would be my minimum. In both of these choices I am assuming the use of premium bullets. I have found the Barnes TTSX bullets to be so lethal, I use 150 grain TTSX for longer work and have heavy round nosed Lapua bullets when up close and personal

In times past I used to live in Northwestern Wyoming and hunted bushels of Antelope when over the counter tags for residents were easy.

I did use a .270 for them on the flats and way up in the mortician meadows,,,Grizz country. I used to load the 180 round nosed Barnes Originals. The twist was not ideal for long range work but I had other lighter bullets for such srvice. Those bullets looked like half a pencil and would penetrate forever.

I still do not understand this clinging to flat, fast tiny bullets.

Shot placement is ideal an theoretical. Real world situations always afford surprises.

MR

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So I guess the bull moose my girlfriend killed with the 25-06 and a 115TSX should never have happened? One shot, that little bullet went completely thru both shoulders and exited. Went 25yds and fell over.

 

[elkduds]

 

[The Hedgehog]

View attachment 181661

Back in Langford hall MSU - ouzo and me completely wrecked a linoleum floor after a rough night 1987.

 

[TheJason]

Back in Langford hall MSU - ouzo and me completely wrecked a linoleum floor after a rough night 1987.

I had to look this one up. I’m amazed there is/was an alcohol that escaped us at WSU.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

In the words of Chuck Hawk, when speaking of WDM Bell, "The legacy that WDM Bell leaves us is that perfect shot placement, coupled with proper bullet construction, trumps caliber every time. The best thing you can do to increase your hunting success is to understand the anatomy of your quarry and practice with your rifle until you can put your first shot exactly where it should go."

Since I'm not following any of this whiskey and wine talk, haha

The legacy of WDM Bell, is that the cemeteries in Africa have many hunters in them who tried to follow his “small bullet act” and failed. Add in that many animals went away wounded to die.


Bell was an amazing human anomaly and too many hunters did not have,never will have, his extraordinary combination of skills and dedication.



I miss the era of responsibility when state fish and game departments legally required a minimum of 6mm for deer hunting and .25 caliber for elk.



What has changed those laws, has been the powerful lobbying efforts of the gun industry to promote the use of .223 semi-auto’s for hunting game animals thus allowing a bunch of “Wanna Be’s” to play “Soldier Boy” dressed head to toe in camo while running around with their “weapons” with 30 round mags.



We are not at war with wildlife and the rifles we take game animals with should have enough energy and bullet weight to be humane killers beyond ideal conditions.



It it a shame that state Fish and Game Departments all over the country allowed this to happen.

 

[The Hedgehog]

The legacy of WDM Bell, is that the cemeteries in Africa have many hunters in them who tried to follow his “small bullet act” and failed. Add in that many animals went away wounded to die.


Bell was an amazing human anomaly and too many hunters did not have,never will have, his extraordinary combination of skills and dedication.



I miss the era of responsibility when state fish and game departments legally required a minimum of 6mm for deer hunting and .25 caliber for elk.



What has changed those laws, has been the powerful lobbying efforts of the gun industry to promote the use of .223 semi-auto’s for hunting game animals thus allowing a bunch of “Wanna Be’s” to play “Soldier Boy” dressed head to toe in camo while running around with their “weapons” with 30 round mags.



We are not at war with wildlife and the rifles we take game animals with should have enough energy and bullet weight to be humane killers beyond ideal conditions.



It it a shame that state Fish and Game Departments all over the country allowed this to happen.

You could start a movement. Build a website asking folks to take a “pledge” and maybe talk to your legislators to make it a law.

 

[Don Fischer]

We are not at war with wildlife and the rifles we take game animals with should have enough energy and bullet weight to be humane killers beyond ideal conditions.

I certainly agree with that. only question is how much is enough? In Bells case it was no where near what most might think. Matter of fact Elenore O'Conner only killed one elephant and she did it with a 30-06! For myself if I needed to put meat in the freezer and all I had was a 243, I'd use it. But I wouldn't take a shot into the chest, I'd do the neck. And, maybe more important it would not be a long shot. In a situation like that the object is not to prove how well I shoot but rather to put meat in the freezer. Actually I seldom recommend the 243 for any big game, starting point for me is 25 cal due to what I think are better bullet's. And for big game larger than deer, I seldom recommend a 25 cal, then I think the starting place is 6.5 and bullet's are the reason there. Last several years I elk hunted I used a 30-06 even though I'd done very well with a 6.5x06 on them. I think if someone were in a pinch for meat, the cartridge he used and range he'd be willing to shoot would suddenly come into focus. That subsistence hunting. But there are relatively few of them in this country anymore. Rather we are sport hunter's and a good many that are most vocal view themselves as long range expert's. It is strange I have never read about a bad shot at long range. And yet I do suspect that most big game is shot under 200yds. I'm pretty sure that the closer you get to the game the better you will place the shot. So I think that all cartridges have the ability to kill, but that depend greatly on the user and his willingness to do what he has to to make a clean kill.

I don't think the size of a cartridge is as important as what bullet's are available in that cartridge. And it's that lack of bullets in the 24 and 25 cal that turns me away from them even though I know they are adequate for much larger game than deer and coyotes! My 25-06 has liked a lot of deer but I have never carried it elk hunting. I have killed three deer with the 243 but these days I have better choices. And the good thing is you can get into better choices with relatively mild recoil!

 

[rwc101]

the cemeteries in Africa have many hunters in them

How many?

 

[diamond hitch]

I agree with the 'use enough gun' philosophy. The arguments used so far dance on the edge of 'I killed a bull with a sling shot'. I also remember many articles in the 90s listing the 06 as marginal and you should start with a 338.

As you read through many of the differant forums, the east coast deer hunters whine about the weight and are proponants of little guns and little bullets. The distance shooters are reluctant to learn how to shoot and desire artillary so they don't have to compensate for bullet drop.

The argument over most of it relates to perfect shots in open country. I've filled my freezer for over 50 years. The number of perfect shots offered is right up there with gift elk standing next to the road with a 'shoot me' sign on it. Using enough gun relates to the insurance policy of having what you need to compensate for the crappy angle you were offered, the jungle you had to shoot through, the off hand shot you got in a blizzard or high winds, and /or the misguess you had on the lead as they took off in the trees.

If you only take the perfect shots under perfect conditions - carry on. For the rest of us - buy some insurance and as one of the writers wrote years ago - shoot the gun you shoot well (with common sense and reason).

 

[Deleted member 16014]

How many?

Pardon him while he finds the excel sheet and "African Cemeteries" tab...

 

[Mustangs Rule]

How many?

A fair response on your part. I was reading an African writer ages ago, Maybe Robert Ruark, Maybe Aggard, maybe the "who knows". I was sruck by this writers African experience regarding hunters coming to African wanting to use "lesser calibers" than guides/PH's would have preferred.

The article made the comment that many hunters in African died form using lesser calibers and how that, plus wounding of game animals, led to laws that set minimum calibers for dangerous game.

Meeting tose laws was one reaon the thr 9.3 x 62 was upgraded to the newer 9.3 x 68.

Also why 160 grain bullets for the 6.5x55 Swede are required to hunt moose with that caliber in Scandanavia.

An interesting twist towards lighter bullets are the all copper, Barnes, GMX etc.

Reading the feedback from Professional Hunters/Guides in Africa, these have become the prefered bullets based on excellent performances.

Previously I never would have been comfortable with a .243 for deer under varied and challenging non-ideal situations.

Years of being a guide myself for huge boar has caused a shift after seeing truckloads of kills,,,,,but still,,,why play with pee-shooters and picksqueak calibers recomended for women and children at shorter ranges when so many low recoil options are now available?

This often stated opinion about perfect shot placement leaves out so many thungs that can and do happen in the field.

Maybe I mentioned it in this post,,,cannot recall, but once I was lying in the grass and a huge boar,,,over 400 pounds, was walking straight into me coming up a grade,,,,his slanted head hid his chest, there was no side shot.

As he was breathing his mouth was opening and closing,,,,when it opened, I shot right in it. The bullet went all the way down his throat and into his lungs. He rolled over and spouted piink frothy lung blood like a whale. DEAD.

My .280 175 grain bullet did the job just fine.

Use Enough Gun.

 

[rwc101]

People that shoot animals in the mouth lecturing others...

 

[Mustangs Rule]

People that shoot animals in the mouth lecturing others...

Right down the throat actually, great for a charging lion, tears up lungs quite well,,,,,,,similar to to "Up the Nose" recommended by African profssional hunters for charging Cape Buffalo,,,,"up the nose" goes right to the brain.

These are some of the tried and true shot placements for dangerous game coming straight to You, charging, which this boar was not doing, I was just where he wanted to come.

Of course such traditional shot placements are great killers, provided one is not using a straw and spitball caliber for hunting.

Long ago I used to wander about these hills filled with sandstone caves overlooking huge barley ranchs. The boar hid out there in the cool during hot days.

My favorite game for such doings was getting close to th entry with a little 7x57 carbine with the supper heavy bullet twist for 190 grainers and stir up the boar and shoot them, one or more, when they came running out.

I took three up close one time while they began their run out one time,,,,shoot quick. They all fell like stones to those 190 grain bullets.