UNIONS .. YEH ? or NEY ?

[dgibson]

My father-in-law worked for a union shop once, in the electronic maintenance department of a power generation facility. By Da Rules, every job had to have two workers attend it, so he and another guy went in a truck to wherever they were required. My F-I-L would fix the problem and his partner would crouch in a corner, reading a magazine. This was considered acceptable, because the second man was there "just in case he was needed." Furthermore, when new equipment was installed, Da Rules said someone else had to do the wiring (not electrical power, just small-signal data wiring and the like), even though my F-I-L usually had to tell the installer where each wire went.

This is not progress.

In broadcasting, some stations are union and some aren't. In union shops, everyone has their defined jobs. In a union shop, if I, as a maintenance engineer, edit on a tape machine while it is installed in an edit bay, I am violating Da Rules. That's the Editor's job. Never mind that I'm just checking it for function; it has to be pulled out of service before I can do that. If a photographer tries to bang out a quick edit in a time crunch (because he shot the video and knows where everything is on the tape), he is breaking Da Rules, even though he's trying to help. That's the Editor's job. If the Editor finishes his work, he sits and does nothing. If the Production department needs him to help play back the tapes on-air, he cannot...that's someone else's job. So he sits and does nothing while someone else gets paid to run those tapes.

This is not progress.

Unions did a great deal to improve working conditions and compensation for "the working man." In some cases they still do, and in those instances they are to be commended. However, just because they were great once upon a time does NOT necessarily mean that they continue to be the best possible solution now, and it does NOT necessarily mean that they haven't become corrupted or giddy with their own power. Their past success does not imply future impeccability.

The telegraph revolutionized communications around the world, but how many of you are posting on this BB in Morse code?

.-.-.-

 

[JoseCuervo]

In my best Narrator's Voice....
It is not looking good for the Unions in the early posts.... After 21 posts, there appears to be 2 posts pro-Union, one kinda pro-union. The rest of the posts either support the ideas of 80 years ago, or take exception.

It is not looking good for Yuke when he comes back. There appears to be an overwhelming lack of support for Unions. But, it is still early in the thread, and Yuke has not clearly laid out his gameplan. Will he attempt to educate the un-educated, or will he attempt a different approach.

Tune in tomorrow, when we find Yuke saying "1, 2, 3, 4, .....405, 406, 407, ....876, 877, 878...."

 

[Moosie]

Ithica.... Well It could be, But I just wanted to Start a Topic like you do down here. I'm trying !!

Give me a few more years and I'll figure this game out like you have

Notice though Usually my Contraversy posts get some replies in them too

I'm all in AWE for Y.H. tomorrow, Hell, I might visit this section 2 days in a Row jsut to see if I can !! HEHE

 

[pawclaws]

By Gad I'll say one thing about Unions, when they bury a former leader's body, it stays buried!

YH unions have nothing to do with our standard of living. Why we have been so fortunate in North America is because our physical infrastructures haven't been destroyed every twenty five or thirty years and required rebuilding like most of Europe, Japan, China, etc.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Paw...

While we are waiting for Yuke, I'll step in and disagree with you..

It has nothing to do with our Intrastructure, but it has everything to do with the fact that we had ALL the natural resources required (up until we all decided a V-8 was the minimum engine). We had coal, we had Iron, we had Timber, we had ground for growing our food. We were able develop our standard of living as we saw fit, by clear cutting, strip mining, and daming rivers to irrigate.

Our standard of living was completely dependent upon our short term consumption of the Natural Resources that just happened to fall within our borders.

 

[BuzzH]

The great thing about Unions is, if you dont want to belong to one, you can find a job that doesnt require you to.

I think theres very little doubt that at least historically Unions certainly did a good job with working conditions, benefits to employees etc.

Without them, or something similar, I'm quite sure the average corporation would gladly pay you ten cents an hour.

As to the current need for them, I think the best thing they do is negotiate at contract time for better benefits, raises, etc. It gives the workers a stronger, organized voice. They also protect honest employees, make seniority meaningful for advancement, (less likely to have the bosses friend get your job), etc.

I also agree that they protect a lot of dead wood, which nobody likes to see. Thats the one thing that I dont like about them.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

I have worked as a union member in the past. The union did nothing for me except to take a high initiation fee and regular dues from my paycheck.

In the past, the unions were vitally needed. The sweat shop hours and pay and the dangerous working conditions that existed prior to the unions were terrible, to say the least. As YH pointed out, look at the Third World nations and how the workers there are treated and paid.

That said, in this country, I see very little need for the unions today. You have all kinds of labor laws, labor boards and labor commissioners. You have OHSA nationally and here we have CAL-OHSA. There are laws against wrongful termination, job discrimination, harrassment, etc. Most companies have Human Resource Departments that keep track of all this, and ensure fair treatment of employees. Those companies that do not do so are soon shut down or sued.

The biggest joke, and I'm sure Yukon Hunter will get very upset by this, are the civil servant unions. It is practically impossible to fire a civil servant and they get great pensions! The unions just bleed the tax payers dry and are the biggest contributors to election campaigns in the US. Look at the Prison Guards in California - they got the biggest raise of anyone and practically in the history of the state while the state is suffering from a huge deficit, because they contributed a few hundred grand to Davis' reelection campaign. This was one of the reasons Davis was recalled.

So yes, the unions have contributed greatly to the welfare of the worker in the past. I just don't think they serve a purpose now, in this country. By inflating the value of labor here, they are driving production lines to other countries. The Third World could sure use them, though!

 

[Yukon Hunter]

Nope. I ain't biting. I'll ignore this topic. We had about a 120 post thread on the NAHC board that got rather heated, and I'm not willing to enter into this again.
I like 'em. Others don't. Fine.

 

[cjcj]

Ok Yukon at least explain, what your connection to those illegal Motherf!@#$$ckers an unions are, im not sure what you were getting at?

 

[MarlandS]

Now come on guys, YH is right. Unions aren't worth arguing over, here in the U.S. they are a socialist dinosaur. In some backwards countries though they are still necessary .

;D

 

[schmalts]

actually right now they are needed again. Corperate greed is making CEO's terribly wealthy at the expense of the blue collar workers.
I agree they need to be refined a bit, they need to stop protecting the idiots and slackers. That will be the downfall of unions.

 

[Toonces]

Oh my dear lord, have you guys really broken Yukon Hunter?

The next thing you know he will be gushing over trickle down economics and quoting scripture.

Say it ain't so YH, say it ain't so.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-30-2003 19:25: Message edited by: Toonces ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Yukon, I can't believe you're letting them get away with all this BS!

Be tough and hang in there, you'll wear them down eventually.

A couple years ago almost all the SI posters were defending Welfare Ranchers and fat assed ATV riders, but most of them gave up!

 

[JoseCuervo]

In my best Narrators voice.....

Oh My Gosh!!!! We have never seen anything like this before. The crowd is screaming in uproar, as Yukon Hunter refuses to answer the Bell to the Second Day's bout.

What a tragedy and miscarriage of sport. Soon the crowd will be throwing things into the ring, in an attempt to get Yukon Hunter up of the stool in his corner and engaged in the debate.

Hey Yuke,
Can you give us the link at NAHC so we can read the 120 post thread? We are already up to 33, and this one ain't heated....

 

[Calif. Hunter]

How are unions going to do anything about "corporate greed" or crooked executives? That is ultimately up to the stockholders. If they are stupid enough to continue to pay exhorbitant salaries and benefit packages to these guys, what can a union do?

 

[Moosie]

MAYBE there is a Union Leader coming to debate this topic... That's what the Dues are paid for right ?

 

[1WHITETAIL HUNTER]

I thought Yukon was the Union Leader?

 

[Whiskers]

I belong to a UNION..the AMALGAMATED TRANSIT UNION LOCAL 880. Cost me $42 per month. Unions have their good points and their bad ones. I agree with the thought that because of corporate greed UNIONS are needed more today, than a couple of years ago. But UNIONs are greedy too. They get a percentage of your hourly rate, the more you make, the more your assessed. So every two years they go get you more. The leaders who are voted in by the membership, make a lot of money, and get a lot of perks, so they work harder for the members to keep there jobs.

Flipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>$8000 vehicles that cost $45,000 direct result of UNIONS
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How about INSURANCE COMPANIESthat lobby the government for their agenda (bigger profits) EPA requirements (most of which are unnecessary) consumer demands for higher tech vehicles; remote start,remote sliding doors, DVD players (to keep the kids quiet) GPS, OnStar, Power points all over for plug in devices. Corporate greed, Blue collar workers who want to see their stock portfolios increase. And more consumers that can afford $45,000 vehicles because of UNIONS car companies will not build $45,000 cars if no one is buying them. Look how many $70,000 Hummers you see on the road.

Paws:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Politicians still appreciate them because anyone sltupid enough to join one is also stupid enough to vote for whoever the union leaders tell them to! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I cannot believe that came from your learned fingers. I VOTE for whoever I want to as do a lot of UNION MEMBERS

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Former Treasurer AFGE <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Doesn't AFGE stand for AMERICAN FEDERATION OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEESthats a UNIONwho did you vote for?? Some places you cannot work like for the gubmint if you don't belong to the UNION

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-31-2003 08:43: Message edited by: Whiskers ]</font>

 

[Santa]

HO! HO! HO! My goodness Cam don't let these boys get to you like that! And look here you yahoos; just cause I wear a red suit doesn't necessarily make me a Communist!

Mike the availability of natural resources is relative; I mean look what I've done with my place!! Now compare that to Iran or Iraq or Saudi Arabia, get my drift?? You Southern boysure are touchy!!

 

[Yukon Hunter]

AAAhhhhh...phuck it. I've been goaded into a response.
Where to start? I suppose with the last post, re:
AN $8,000 CAR NOW COSTS $45,000
Yep-that's largely because of Unions. The sons-of-bitches are demanding a fair wage for their employees. How dare they?!?
Unions aren't all about protecting the slackers- no one likes to see that. They are, however, about protecting the Membership, and doing all they can to make the worker's lives better. The days of cement shoes and mobsters are long gone from the Union picture- at least here in Canada. Unions don't fight organized crime for control of worker's dollars- they fight Management to increase worker's safety, wage and benefit packages. Those of you that are whining about paying Union dues should stop and think for a moment- where would your wages be if you DIDN'T have your Union? What you want is all the benefits your Union provides, with none of the hassles of actually supporting them. It's just that kind of "All for me, and screw everyone else" that makes Union shops disappear, and employee wages drop. Think Corporate America's Human Resource people are there to help you? Bullshit- they're there to screw you any way they can. Who do you think the Union fights on your behalf? Think if the Unions disappear, other agencies like the OHSA will protect you? Bullshit- Corporate America has the Administration in it's pocket. They've already raped your environmental laws- who do you think stands up and stops them from easing your labor laws?
On another BB, which I won't point out at the time (although it was the NAHC), the posts that REALLY got my panties in a knot were from a guy who's Dad worked in a Union shop, and crossed the picket lines, setting himself up as a darling in the company's eyes after the strike was over. Friggin' scab. It's goddamned cowards like him that get people hurt during strikes- reap the benefits that your Union brothers and sisters have busted their humps for, then turn your back on them when they need your support. Bag-licker. JJJEEEEZZZUUUSSS that pisses me off.
Oh, and by the way- the reason they can charge $45,000 for that $8,000 car is because YOU can afford to pay it. That's what Unions do for everyone- all of us benefit from the Unions forcing increased pay and benefits to their members. If the company you work for (Sea Ray) isn't Unionized, they can still charge the exhorbitant amount they do for boats because Union folks have driven wages up so we can afford to pay for them. So, that $45,000 Sea Ray is actually also worth $8,000. Of course, if they only charge that much, you'll get about 1/6th as much as you get now for your work on it. Make sense?
I work hard for my Brothers and Sisters up here- probably close to as many hours each week as I do at my regular job. Not because there is any direct benefit to me- there isn't. The Union doesn't give me a dime. I do it because it's the right thing to do. When the employer is screwing someone, they have to be held accountable. That's what we do. It's not about keeping slackers and morons employed- if that was what I was trying to do, I'd go into politics.