Ukraine / Russia

[VikingsGuy]

Nope fighting the last war is thinking that after Putin gets done with Ukraine and we don't stop him then he is going after the rest of the former Communist Bloc/Europe. Imagining that Putin wants to retore the gory of the former Soviet Union by reacquiring all of its former Warsaw Pact territory.

He has told us in his own words that is his intention and he already has troops in other adjacent countries. We don't need to read history - just listen to his stated intentions.

 

[Nameless Range]

The arguments for and against war don't change, just the uniforms of the opponents do.

As I commented a hundred + pages ago, nuclear weapons mounted on intercontinental ballistic missiles exist, and so I fear it isn't that the arguments haven't changed, it's that the human brain has not yet updated to the calculus - the splitting of the atom being something that they think generates power, or that they read about, or saw on some old black and white film.

I don't believe a measured assessment of the situation and the risk involved will be satisfactory to most.

 

[ismith]

But the alternative for Ukraine is even worse. I can't see an upside for them to surrender.

Yep, better for everyone if they keep feeding the meat grinder for us.

 

[ismith]

He has told us in his own words that is his intention and he already has troops in other adjacent countries. We don't need to read history - just listen to his stated intentions.

The Russians can’t even take Ukraine, how the hell are they going to take the rest of Europe? Immigration will destroy Europe, not the Russians, with the exception of possible nuclear Armageddon.

 

[Handlebar]

He has told us in his own words that is his intention and he already has troops in other adjacent countries. We don't need to read history - just listen to his stated intentio

I have seen that attributed to him by analysts, and he has said that he would go after those that interfere, I took that to mean employing troops in theatre.

Y'all seem to think he is threat to us; I don't see it that way. I have yet to see how the Ukrainian situation is an existential threat to the USA. He is most certainly not going to invade a NATO country. Do you think he going to march into the Ruhr and take over Germany industrial production? If that is the current analysis, then perhaps the Germans should up their defense budget. I have a hard time understanding why we have donated at almost a 2:1 ration the amount of the EU which has a comparable GDP to ours.
Bottom line IMO this is a European mess that they cannot or will not deal with themselves. We have been over there for over 80 years it is time for them to clean up their own back yard. We have our own border issues to deal with.

 

[Addicting]

I have a hard time understanding why we have donated at almost a 2:1 ration the amount of the EU which has a comparable GDP to ours.

Blackmail for what Ukraine did for Hunter Biden.

 

[VikingsGuy]

The Russians can’t even take Ukraine, how the hell are they going to take the rest of Europe? Immigration will destroy Europe, not the Russians, with the exception of possible nuclear Armageddon.

Lack of immigration is what is killing Europe -immigration has powered America for centuries and left us the only modern economy not facing a catosptrophic demographic cliff - but this is an argument for another thread.

 

[SAJ-99]

- NATO-member Turkey is actively helping Russia evade economic sanctions.
- India is buying Russian oil at discount while we cheer our largest company Apple looking to move some production from China to India, because you know China.
- A large % of the US population simultaneously complains about gasoline prices and the incentives provided for electric vehicles.
- and talking about “last wars”, 20% of the clothes in the American closet today are made in Vietnam.

Hold on to your narratives at your own risk. This stuff is complicated.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I have seen that attributed to him by analysts, and he has said that he would go after those that interfere, I took that to mean employing troops in theatre.

Y'all seem to think he is threat to us; I don't see it that way. I have yet to see how the Ukrainian situation is an existential threat to the USA. He is most certainly not going to invade a NATO country. Do you think he going to march into the Ruhr and take over Germany industrial production? If that is the current analysis, then perhaps the Germans should up their defense budget. I have a hard time understanding why we have donated at almost a 2:1 ration the amount of the EU which has a comparable GDP to ours.
Bottom line IMO this is a European mess that they cannot or will not deal with themselves. We have been over there for over 80 years it is time for them to clean up their own back yard. We have our own border issues to deal with.

Blind isolationism has never been the winning answer, but it is oddly nostalgic to see that it never really goes away.

 

[ismith]

Blind isolationism has never been the winning answer, but it is oddly nostalgic to see that it never really goes away.

I’m sure a wonderful game of “Global Thermonuclear War” would be the winning answer, if our previous military adventures are any indicator.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I’m sure a wonderful game of “Global Thermonuclear War” would be the winning answer, if our previous military adventures are any indicator.

And letting Putin win in the Ukraine and then Georgia and the Moldova, and then squeeze the Baltic states, etc, etc, etc, would make this less likely how? At some point the west will stop him - now is better than later - and yes, nuclear war is bad, it is just not clear that appeasement is a safe route either.

 

[ismith]

And letting Putin win in the Ukraine and then Georgia and the Moldoia, and then squeeze the Baltic states, etc, etc, etc, would make this less likely how? At some point the west will stop him - now is better than later - and yes, nuclear war is bad, it is just not clear that appeasement is a safe route either.

Just like how Iraq played a major role in 9-11 and how Vietnam attacked the USS Maddox .

 

[Handlebar]

Blind isolationism has never been the winning answer, but it is oddly nostalgic to see that it never really goes away.

With military bases in over 130 countries and remaining in Europeover 75 years after WWII and roughly 30 years after the wall came down, we have a long way to go to reach the levels of isolationism that I pine for

 

[Nameless Range]

I think one of the most timeless themes of war is folks talking about war, sometimes endorsing it, who will never go to war themselves. How would folks perspective's change, if their skin was in the game? It's a question that will never be answered.

I listened to a podcast about a potential analogous path to an end to the Ukraine conflict that would be a good-case-scenario, and they used the Finnish Winter War as their model. During those months of war, the Finns never stopped pleading for peace with the Soviet Union. They never closed the lines of communication. In the end, they ceded over 10% of their territory, and history largely views them as the victors of that conflict - in particular the moral victors.

As long as the bankroll is unlimited, and rhetoric is that of "absolute" victory of full Russian withdrawal on Ukraine's behalf, which by the way will never happen, the establishment is narrating itself toward a rock and a hard place.

 

[BrentD]

With military bases in over 130 countries and remaining in Europeover 75 years after WWII and roughly 30 years after the wall came down, we have a long way to go to reach the levels of isolationism that I pine for

Thank god for that.

 

[Handlebar]

If we continue to push and this gets worse and goes kinetic for this country, I hope that some of y'all that have advocated continued action will take my son's place

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

I think one of the most timeless themes of war is folks talking about war, sometimes endorsing it, who will never go to war themselves. How would folks perspective's change, if their skin was in the game? It's a question that will never be answered.

I listened to a podcast about a potential analogous path to an end to the Ukraine conflict that would be a good-case-scenario, and they used the Finnish Winter War as their model. During those months of war, the Finns never stopped pleading for peace with the Soviet Union. They never closed the lines of communication. In the end, they ceded over 10% of their territory, and history largely views them as the victors of that conflict - in particular the moral victors.

As long as the bankroll is unlimited, and rhetoric is that of "absolute" victory of full Russian withdrawal on Ukraine's behalf, which by the way will never happen, the establishment is narrating itself toward a rock and a hard place.

On that subject, this bit about Aimo Koivenen is something everyone needs to see. Drugs are bad, m’kay.

 

[BrentD]

If we continue to push and this gets worse and goes kinetic for this country, I hope that some of y'all that have advocated continued action will take my son's place

"Goes kinetic"??? cute, I suppose.

Let's instead hope that keeping Putin occupied and losing with Ukraine will prevent all of those things you hope for and against.

 

[ismith]

Blind isolationism has never been the winning answer, but it is oddly nostalgic to see that it never really goes away.

For “our” democracy.

 

[ismith]

"Goes kinetic"??? cute, I suppose.

Let's instead hope that keeping Putin occupied and losing with Ukraine will prevent all of those things you hope for and against.

I’m sure China just loves us for keeping Putin “busy”.