Ukraine / Russia

[np307]

Good Lord I can’t believe I’m trying to defend Russia. Were the reports of combatants being inside of that building true? I’ve kind of lost track of everything.

I will agree if they were intentionally targeting civilians in bombings that’s not good, if it was a accidental hit or errant rocket, those things happen. The Afghan family that we drowned during the withdrawal is a good example of that. Shit happens unfortunately.

At least 1400 civilian casualties so far, 500 of them deaths. 18 hospitals or medical centers destroyed, including in the supposed "ceasefire"/humanitarian zone. Plenty of videos out there of people's houses getting shelled with artillery and the internal reporting from Ukraine is that over the last day attacks on civ. targets have significantly upticked compared to military targets.

But yeah, its just part of it.

 

[Rhcuam]

At least 1400 civilian casualties so far, 500 of them deaths. 18 hospitals or medical centers destroyed, including in the supposed "ceasefire"/humanitarian zone. Plenty of videos out there of people's houses getting shelled with artillery and the internal reporting from Ukraine is that over the last day attacks on civ. targets have significantly upticked compared to military targets.

But yeah, its just part of it.

Take about 30 seconds to do a little bit of research about how many Iraqi civilians were killed during the 2003 to 2022 time. Period. I’ll even help you out, 185,194 – 208,167, So yes it is unfortunately part of it.

 

[np307]

Take about 30 seconds to do a little bit of research about how many Iraqi civilians were killed during the 2003 to 2022 time. Period. I’ll even help you out, 185,194 – 208,167, So yes it is unfortunately part of it.

Thanks, yeah I was totally unaware of that and it completely changes my mind on civilian casualties in unjustified acts of aggression.

 

[Rhcuam]

The first gulf war in 1991 was around 3500.
Probably not a good idea to go back and look at Vietnam or WWII as those where different animals but I might be a few civilian deaths in those as well.

Not trying to change your mind, just putting a little info out there for context.

 

[Addicting]

Looking at the Russian equipment and the age level of the POWs who were operating it. There is a distinct view of old equipment and inexperienced operators. That to me means a lot of just send it without regard for where it lands. I would be completely surprised if interviews with POWs revealed any rules of engagement.

 

[Rhcuam]

The pictures of the armored war train looks like something out of a Indiana Jones movie.

 

[Pucky Freak]

The images of Ukrainian women and children in bomb shelters and evacuation lines, it’s almost unbearable for me to watch. The kids are wearing the same clothes my kids wear. The same books and toys that my kids have. And they look just like my European ancestors. I don’t think the that makes me prejudiced against human suffering when the victims don’t look like me. Rather, it just hits so close to home it affects me on a deeper emotional level. It feels like my neighbors or my extended family are being slaughtered.

 

[Handlebar]

Was Handlebar's account hacked by a Russian bot?

No I am still here, that is why I wrote unconfirmed.

 

[MarvB]

The pictures of the armored war train looks like something out of a Indiana Jones movie.

More like a Mad Max movie!

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

I hate to say it because it’s the worst parts of humanity, but Chechnya is predominantly Muslim, and brown.

Chechens aren't brown (see Chechen kids below). But the fact that people don't know that, might be why those atrocities didn't hit home. I think the real issue is they don't have a voice that reaches out of Russia....

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

Russia doesn't "Target" civilians. Not really a concern one way or the other for them. They just line up the barrels and demolish everything they can. It's the Russian Military's way. They don't go" Hey that hospital down there between the two air fields looks like fun, should be some kids and nurses there..

They just destroy er all.

Get out the way or end up in the rubble.

IMO, he will eventually win the war of attrition. Over time he will take over the country.

He will never control it.

Russia does use punitive attacks that are focused on destroying the morale of the populace, to break a country (to include the military's) will to fight. They have shown this very clearly in Chechnya and Syria.

 

[shoots-straight]

Russia does use punitive attacks that are focused on destroying the morale of the populace, to break a country (to include the military's) will to fight. They have shown this very clearly in Chechnya and Syria.

Hard to pin their thought process. If they destroy everything it has the same effects.

Why fight for rubble?

Can you point to an instance where they bombed a school, or housing development and left a military target next to it?

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

Hard to pin their thought process. If they destroy everything it has the same effects.

Why fight for rubble?

Can you point to an instance where they bombed a school, or housing development and left a military target next to it?

I agree with your idea that they aren't doing pinpoint targeting of anything, they draw a line around a city and throw artillery and rockets into it. It is less about what gets destroyed, and more about the effect they achieve, the military vernacular is effects-based-operations. There is possibly some idea that fighting over rubble is pointless, but there is little strategic value in the cities they are shelling. What they are trying to achieve is erosion of the Ukrainian will to fight; they are punishing the defenders. Keep resisting, and keep watching innocent people die. The hope being at some point, the average Ukrainian decides being a Russian puppet is better than their homes and families being destroyed. It is the same thing they tried with varying degrees of success in AFG, Syria, Chechnya...

 

[QuazyQuinton]

Chechens aren't brown (see Chechen kids below). But the fact that people don't know that, might be why those atrocities didn't hit home. I think the real issue is they don't have a voice that reaches out of Russia....

View attachment 214884

That, and I'm sure we subconsciously see atrocities differently if Russia is marching toward our "friends" instead of toward our "enemies."

QQ

 

[Panda Bear]

Television shows us what we watch. No one seemed to care about news from Chechnya so we saw little. White blond and Christian hits the news. Olive skin black hair and Muslim, not so much.

I point the finger at myself as well. I have paid way more attention to this than the other.

We were discussing the news that one of Canada's best snipers had gone to Ukraine to help them and I said something similar and was told "dont try to make this about race" And, of course, "race" was not why Putin started this and it is also not totally our fault either that we get more emotionally involved with one war vs another. The way this war is framed in the media, the coverage, the effect on other Nations because of the disruption of oil distribution, sanctions and how they can have a boomerang effect on the Nation {s} imposing the sanctions. And in my opinion, it is real easy to dislike Putin, even before he invaded.

The short reply to your post , I agree

 

[VikingsGuy]

Today's Map:

 

[RobertD]

Vietnam

might be a few civilian deaths

You probably know this but for those that don't Vietnam War saw 1/2 million to 2 million dead civilians

10-40× # of dead American servicemen

No bloodshed in the Cold War but just look at how many innocents the proxy wars killed... we don't need Cold War 2.0 but it's here

 

[88man]

Rubio Speaks at Senate Foreign Relations Committee Hearing on Putin’s Invasion of Ukraine, Condemns Talks with Maduro​

MAR 08 2022​

Washington, D.C. — U.S. Senator Marco Rubio (R-FL) spoke during a Senate Committee on Foreign Relations hearing and condemned the Biden Administration’s decision to engage in talks with the Maduro narco-regime of Venezuela. Rubio also warned of the possibility of Russian false flag operations involving biological warfare and discussed Russia’s frozen economy. Video of Rubio’s remarks can be found here and a full transcript is below.

Rubio is a senior member of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations and Ranking Member of the Subcommittee On Western Hemisphere, Transnational Crime, Civilian Security, Democracy, Human Rights, and Global Women's Issues.

Witness:
The Honorable Victoria Nuland, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs

Rubio: Secretary Nuland, does the United States recognize Juan Guaidó as the president of Venezuela?

Nuland: We recognize his leadership in Venezuela, yes.

Rubio: Do we recognize him as the president of Venezuela? Is that not our official position? It is. So why would we meet with dictator Nicolás Maduro, without telling Juan Guaidó or the [Venezuelan] Ambassador here in the United States that it was happening? … Why wouldn't we coordinate with them beforehand?

Nuland: … We met with the opposition before that meeting.

Rubio: You met with the opposition after that meeting.

Nuland: … I think it was the other way around, Senator.

Rubio: Well, I assure you, it was after that meeting, and certainly the Ambassador feels that way. He was not aware of it until after that meeting.

You are aware that the Venezuelan oil industry is in shambles after years of mismanagement [and] corruption? It's a personal piggy bank [for Maduro]. They produce, on a good day, about a quarter of what they used to produce, what we would all remember as Venezuela. And every informed person in the oil industry will tell you that if we were to buy all of it — and we can't, because some of it's already contractually committed — it would [have] an insignificant impact on the U.S. economy. But it would be a huge benefit to Maduro. It would be millions of dollars for his personal piggy bank. So is this meeting — the secret meeting that occurred this weekend — is this part of a Russia strategy? Or is it part of a general pivot in the broader Venezuela matter?

Nuland: There's zero pivot in our Venezuela strategy, Senator. I can only talk about [the meeting] to some extent in this setting. I'm happy to talk to you about it in another setting, if you'd like.

Rubio: Well, it's not because it's classified, but because it's a confidential [meeting] with another country.

Nuland: For a number of reasons. But first and foremost, the mission was about visiting and checking on the welfare of our incarcerated Americans, the CITGO 6 and the other two. And as you know, we have made regular visits to Caracas for that purpose. We were also seeking to get the Venezuelan government back to the table with the opposition in the internationally monitored peace talks. And then there were a number of other things that we discussed that I can talk to you about….

Rubio: Why did [the Maduro narco-regime] leave those negotiations? Do you recall?

Nuland: They left them because they objected to the extradition of one of…

Rubio: Alex Saab.

Nuland: Yes, exactly.

Rubio: The guy that was helping them to steal gold and sell it to Iran.

Nuland: But I think you'd agree that if they were willing to come back to the table with the opposition, that would be a good thing for the opposition's goals.

Rubio: Actually, I don't really think it would matter.

Maduro is a habitual negotiator, but [negotiations with the narco-regime] never lead to anything. That's why the Vatican won't even host him anymore. Other countries don't even want to be involved anymore. He uses negotiations the way Putin does, habitually, to divide and demoralize his opposition.

I just don't understand why we think that cutting a deal with Maduro now to lift sanctions as he, yesterday, bragged on television about that meeting and … mocked Guaidó. That meeting did tremendous damage to the person that we recognize as the president of Venezuela. It's incredibly troubling. And it would mean nothing, we would notice nothing. [Maduro is] more than happy to agree to negotiations. He uses them to divide the opposition and demoralize them, habitually, the way Putin has done as well.

I only have a minute left. Let me ask you, does Ukraine have chemical or biological weapons?

Nuland: Ukraine has biological research facilities, which, in fact, we are now quite concerned Russian forces may be seeking to gain control of. So we are working with the Ukrainians on how they can prevent any of those research materials from falling into the hands of Russian forces, should they approach.

Rubio: I'm sure you're aware that the Russian propaganda groups are already putting out there all kinds of information about how they've uncovered a plot by the Ukrainians to release biological weapons in the country with NATO's coordination.

If there is a biological or chemical weapon incident or attack inside of Ukraine, is there any doubt in your mind that 100 percent, it would be the Russians that would be behind it?

Nuland: There is no doubt in my mind, Senator. And it is classic Russian technique to blame on the other guy what they're planning to do themselves.

Rubio: Last question: I am certain that the Russians were looking at their foreign reserves as a way to buffer sanctions. But now that we've sanctioned the central bank along with others, do we have an idea of what percentage of their reserves are frozen or inaccessible to them?

Nuland:Virtually all of them are now frozen. You notice that the country's been under currency controls for almost two weeks now. And the whole point of putting so many of these top 10 banks under sanctions is to make it impossible for them to get access to their cash in hard currency.



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[Rhcuam]

Do you think it be too much to ask for receipts for that 13.6 billion we are sending to Ukraine?

 

[VikingsGuy]

Do you think it be too much to ask for receipts for that 13.6 billion we are sending to Ukraine?

I comfortably expect 60% to end up in the right hands and used for the right purpose.

I don't even want to know the misused/nonuse/graft rate for our foreign aid programs. It would be too depressing, sometimes ignorance is bliss.