Ukraine / Russia

[SaskHunter]

We ( Canada ) have sent nearly one trillion dollars to Ukraine since 2014 and now we have decided to "loan" them another 500 million.

It's always a good idea to challenge authority and ask for answers to simple questions like: "where did our money go?". We often never get an answer to that question though.

One thing that is for certain, Canada has deployed troops to Ukraine since 2015 and has trained 33k troops in modern warfare and Western tactics. Canada and allies have lifted the Soviet tactic curtain over Ukrainian forces and enabled them with Western doctrines, most of which come from Canadian military history starting at Vimy ridge. The 33k troops Canada trained, ended up training a lot of other troops.

This is by far the best investment Canada has made in Ukraine and it shows now that we're a month into this war and Russia has yet to have accomplished anything tangible, other than war crimes...

 

[Nick87]

where did our money go?". We often never get an answer to that question though.

The answer you get isn't where it went anyway.

 

[mtmuley]

Right up their with crony capitalism and veggie burgers, I hate sin taxes funding education and conservation.

Sin taxes. Funny. mtmuley

 

[VikingsGuy]

Sin taxes. Funny. mtmuley

It is a common generic name for alcohol, tobacco, gambling and weed taxes, so I guess I miss the funny. I guess I can spell it out next time in order to be less funny.

 

[Irrelevant]

For you @BigHornRam

 

[mtmuley]

It is a common generic name for alcohol, tobacco, gambling and weed taxes, so I guess I miss the funny. I guess I can spell it out next time in order to be less funny.

I know what it is. You don't have to spell out anything, although I know you like to. Why your opposition? mtmuley

 

[VikingsGuy]

I know what it is. You don't have to spell out anything, although I know you like to. Why your opposition? mtmuley

Several studies show that new funds for education and outdoors via these taxes are almost always met with an equal or greater reduction in funding from general funds. It also creates a weird dynamic that key areas of funding are tied to taxes that are the most regressive of all the taxes. And while I tend to be a libertarian, I also acknowledge these products come with significant societal costs, so the taxes really should go to cover those, not unrelated areas.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Serious question. If we subtract Robinson Patman funds, non-res licenses and fees, funds from out of state NGOs, and user fees, how much actual local taxpayer money does go to F&G in the mountain west?

If you're asking 'tax payer dollars' as in money from the general fund earmarked for fish and game it's <10% of all of there budgets... here are some examples

CO ~23MM
WY effectively 0
MT ~$680,000
ID ~$0 (possibly 1.5MM there is a miscellaneous fund not sure if that's general fund or not)
NM ~$0
AK $50,000,000

AK,WY, NV, WA, SD don't have income taxes so in the case of Alaska it's technically Conoco and BP who are the largest funding source outside of PR.

As are as NR to R license fees, ID as an example is ~$360,000 from resident sales and ~$2,000,000 from NR. That ratio is pretty consistent across all states.

 

[Irrelevant]

Ukraine’s Three-to-One Advantage

It’s not technology or tactics that has given Ukrainian fighters their greatest edge.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[VikingsGuy]

If you're asking 'tax payer dollars' as in money from the general fund earmarked for fish and game it's <10% of all of there budgets... here are some examples

CO ~23MM
WY effectively 0
MT ~$680,000
ID ~$0 (possibly 1.5MM there is a miscellaneous fund not sure if that's general fund or not)
NM ~$0
AK $50,000,000

AK,WY, NV, WA, SD don't have income taxes so in the case of Alaska it's technically Conoco and BP who are the largest funding source outside of PR.

As are as NR to R license fees, ID as an example is ~$360,000 from resident sales and ~$2,000,000 from NR. That ratio is pretty consistent across all states.

Thanks. About what I was expecting.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

It's always a good idea to challenge authority and ask for answers to simple questions like: "where did our money go?". We often never get an answer to that question though.

One thing that is for certain, Canada has deployed troops to Ukraine since 2015 and has trained 33k troops in modern warfare and Western tactics. Canada and allies have lifted the Soviet tactic curtain over Ukrainian forces and enabled them with Western doctrines, most of which come from Canadian military history starting at Vimy ridge. The 33k troops Canada trained, ended up training a lot of other troops.

This is by far the best investment Canada has made in Ukraine and it shows now that we're a month into this war and Russia has yet to have accomplished anything tangible, other than war crimes...

This is not to meant to diminish the tremendous about of support Canada has given Ukraine, but I think the correct way to look at that question is what would a hot war cost us.

A billion for the US is a pretty good deal if it means defeating Russia.

What would the cost be if Ukraine had rolled over and Putin had decided to invade the Baltics + Finland etc...

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Thanks. About what I was expecting.

Vermont for comparison is 24% general fund ~$6.88MM

 

[SaskHunter]

This is not to meant to diminish the tremendous about of support Canada has given Ukraine, but I think the correct way to look at that question is what would a hot war cost us.

A billion for the US is a pretty good deal if it means defeating Russia.

What would the cost be if Ukraine had rolled over and Putin had decided to invade the Baltics + Finland etc...

NATO members and the EU have been making a series of very calculated risks since 2014. Things obviously escalated last month and to this day it's all about "what can we do to help Ukraine win without dragging the rest of the world in WW3".

The world witnessed what happened, and how fast, when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, and realized this can't happen in Ukraine.

I beleive this whole thing seriously backfired on Russia and united the West Vs the division they were looking for. Now it's all about carefully helping Ukraine without escalating the conflict. Because what would be next? Where would Russia had gone next if they'd steam rolled Ukraine? Moldova? Georgia? Finland? Etc.

In my very humble opinion, this conflict will break Russia and hopefully bring them true democracy, but at what cost and when? Really sucks for Ukraine, they're not getting the help they want but our hands are tied and the fate of a good chunk of the world is resting on Ukraine. There's still plenty of time for the situation to escalate beyond where we're at.

You are 100% correct, whatever financial investments foreign gov'ts are making in Ukraine will be far cheaper than a full out war and that's not even talking about the cost in human life.

 

[EKYHunter]

as opposed to the 200 Bil to bailout wallstreet. https://money.cnn.com/news/specials/storysupplement/bankbailout/
or the 780 bil for Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War#US_war_costs
or the 2.3 tril in afgan https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar...etary-costs-date-us-war-afghanistan-2001-2022

but I'm sure you pushed to run away from those as well.

Our government sure wastes a lot of tax payer dollars.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Our government sure wastes a lot of tax payer dollars.

If I recall Canada bought 29 F-35Bs for 10 Billion and those puppies cost $40,000 a hour to fly...

I'm not saying that's a waste, but let's have some perspective.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Our government sure wastes a lot of tax payer dollars.

I propose we start by capping receipt of any federal funds within a state at the amount of taxes that state pays into the fed.

 

[Sytes]

Ukraine’s Three-to-One Advantage

It’s not technology or tactics that has given Ukrainian fighters their greatest edge.

www.theatlantic.com

“Our motivation—it is the most important factor, more important than anything. We’re fighting for the lives of our families, for our people, and for our homes.”

American Revolution determination within that quoted description.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I propose we start by capping receipt of any federal funds within a state at the amount of taxes that state pays into the fed.

Our conversation about ideological consistency… interesting correlation between states whose folks don’t like big gubmnt and states that get the most handouts from said gubmnt.

 

[BigHornRam]

NATO members and the EU have been making a series of very calculated risks since 2014. Things obviously escalated last month and to this day it's all about "what can we do to help Ukraine win without dragging the rest of the world in WW3".

The world witnessed what happened, and how fast, when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, and realized this can't happen in Ukraine.

I beleive this whole thing seriously backfired on Russia and united the West Vs the division they were looking for. Now it's all about carefully helping Ukraine without escalating the conflict. Because what would be next? Where would Russia had gone next if they'd steam rolled Ukraine? Moldova? Georgia? Finland? Etc.

In my very humble opinion, this conflict will break Russia and hopefully bring them true democracy, but at what cost and when? Really sucks for Ukraine, they're not getting the help they want but our hands are tied and the fate of a good chunk of the world is resting on Ukraine. There's still plenty of time for the situation to escalate beyond where we're at.

You are 100% correct, whatever financial investments foreign gov'ts are making in Ukraine will be far cheaper than a full out war and that's not even talking about the cost in human life.

Regretfully I am starting to think WW3 is already under way. Starting to think Russia is turning Eastern Ukraine into an uninhabitable buffer zone from the west. No plans to occupy or rebuild it. Chaos for Europe with the flood of refugees to feed and house. The West may now be united but so is the East. China, Russia, India, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and likely many South American countries. Hope I'm wrong. We will find out soon enough.

Ukraine is putting up a hell of a fight, that they can be proud of. Russia may have had bigger ambitions before this invasion, but Ukraine has put an end to that plan.

 

[SAJ-99]

wasn’t real crazy about the Wall Street bail outs or the auto bail outs.

You got all that money back with a really nice return. Just wanted to point that out.