Uh Oh

[mtmuley]

I have to wonder why the friend wasn't identified. Somebody where this happened knows something, and I bet eventually some information will come forward. Everybody knows everybody in that area. mtmuley

 

[RobertR]

There something that's not right with this whole story or unintentional trapping.
First off FWP should not have allowed any published article until the investigation was done.
The reporter Perry Backus waits and hunts for situations like this to fuel the fire for anti trapping.

 

[katqanna]

So heres some questions. Y'all may think that Ruark is stupid for reporting this to Baukus to write about. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and sometimes only time and hindsight will tell what was the prudent thing to do.

But how do you think this would look in an article if that shed hunter had turned that trap over to Heister instead of a hunter? At least the hunter perspective is expressing a concern in this one, instead of looking like the hunters are mum to cover for one of their own.

What if one of the Footloose people had found this? Can you envision the media debacle that would have been? What if they get the idea to start going out with metal detectors after trapping season ends to hunt for traps to further their agenda.

Regardless of who found it, who reported it, who wrote it up, you are still left with the same facts concerning the trap and the trapper. And if hunters do not police their own, whether it is poaching, waste of game, vehicle hunting, crowd shooting, etc., making it socially unacceptable for these illegal and unethical actions to take place, you will be your biggest threat to the future of hunting in my opinion. You wont have to worry about the Humane Society agendas, the Heisters of the world.

My thought is you take the bloody weapon out of their hand. You go on record, make a statement against the illegality so that it doesnt look like you sanction illegal trapping. You stand your ground that hunting is legal in Montana, there are regulations and you advocate for those regulations. You state that you encourage FWP to investigate this.

How in the hell could footloose or the general public use that against you? Sun Tzu Art of War, you use the energy of your opponent against them.

Or you could just keep blaming Ruark and then the next person that finds an illegal trap, and the next. I dont view that as a very beneficial strategy, but I am not a trapper.

Edit: Topgun, you are right, I should state "possibly illegal" since I was not the one to actually find it, to know 100% the exact date.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

I'd like to see some pictures from where the lion supposedly clawed up the tree. That would show whether this is BS or not.

Yep, you would think with almost everyone carrying a phone nowadays that they would have some pictures of what you're saying and with the trap right where it was found. The whole incident really sounds fishy to me. Kat, you're still talking like this is a "for sure" trapping incident when you have no idea that this whole thing isn't just a setup to further an agenda. I hope the other things you "look into" aren't as biased as you seem to be on this matter! You have again mentioned "facts" in your last post and there are no facts to back up what you're posting. They are merely allegations at this point by people with an agenda that may be just as bad or worse than the antis when they start pitting hunters against hunters.

 

[tjones]

Kat, there is no proof this was an illegal trap.

 

[katqanna]

I put an edit up there guys acknowledging Topguns point that I dont know for sure it is illegal, since I did not find it myself and know 100% the date, that I should state "possibly illegal".

 

[JLS]

Theres more to this than the article is stating.

• The trap was found a couple weeks ago. Wolf trapping is Dec. 15 - Feb. 28. So this trap was left out there irresponsibly or it was illegally there.

• The trap had no trapper identification from what was relayed to me right after it was found and it was on public land.

• Ruark has never outfitted.

• Cal took this trap to a meeting with FWP Region 2 Arnold, Thompson and Commissioner Gary Wolfe. Wolfe asked Cal to bring this up at the next commission meeting.

• These guys dont work with York or Heister.

These guys had the meeting with FWP because of mounting concerns with the quota system. Their main point in the trap is that the "human related fatalities need to be counted." This has been their concern for years, stated in person, at the meetings I have gone to and their public comments.

FWP had stated they were going to do this "liberal thinning program" for 3 years then stop. All based on a modeling paper that is contested, not peer reviewed and was even contested by the mountain lion hunters that participated in the study with FWP (I have audio of that meeting). Now FWP is changing their position on that, wanting to continue the heavy reduction and that has these guys concerned. They discussed with me, over a year ago, about the numbers not be properly recorded. I had called APHIS Wildlife Services and gotten the reports for them of all their kills before the Mountain Lion meeting in Three Forks.

So y'all can jump on a fellow sportsman for not holding the thin camo line, in your eyes, but you might want to look into some things first, instead of accepting the spoon feeding the media and certain agencies give you. One could ask the question, wheres your solidarity for standing with the hunter?

A few things here. Using DNA modeling, as done in the Bitterroot lion study, to estimate populations is not brand new to the science world. These techniques have been validated for several years now. Even though the Bitteroot study paper had not yet been peer reviewed does not in any way diminish the science that was used in it, so long as the techniques were performed in the manner that the should have been. A properly designed experiment will always have validations and controls present.

Why did the "friend" take the trap to Ruark and not leave it where he found it and call FWP? If the concern was an illegal trap, why in the hell would they taint the crime scene? Sorry, but this whole part stinks to high Heaven, regardless of everything else.

Depending on how the trap was tagged, if there was a prolonged struggle it is entirely feasible the tag was torn off during this time. Why was it still out? I don't know. It certainly shouldn't have been but that doesn't necessarily indicate nefarious activity. Again, given the fact that the "friend" removed it, it makes it a whole lot harder to conduct an unbiased investigation.

I'm fine that Ruark is concerned with lion quotas. Maybe incidental take is already accounted for when the quota modeling is completed? I hihgly doubt that the population modeling that is done does NOT take into account the fact that X number of lions will die each year by human causes.

Sorry, but this whole thing stinks of sour grapes. You have a houndsman that is pissed off about the population reduction, is not getting the results that he wants and doesn't feel like he is being heard, so he uses an emotional hot button approach to get the attention that he wants.

I could care less if he holds the thin camo line. He is acting like an idiot pure and simple, and the unintended consequences from this little grandstanding act could be much farther reaching than he ever anticipated. At the minimum, his actions appear to be completely self serving and poorly thought out.

 

[shoots-straight]

There's incidental take with all species of animals. Are we going to start counting road kill deer, and elk. How about every elk killed by lions and wolves.

Cal always fights management of lions. He is a strong advocate for cats.

I'm a strong advocate for deer and elk, then lions, bears, and wolves.

The DNA study will prove it's worth and accuracy over time, even if we have to duplicate it.

Cat, I don't think Cal hunts anymore. Take that for what it's worth.

 

[katqanna]

Shoots, I know Cal doesnt hunt cats anymore. I also know other older hunters that dont hunt elk because it is too hard on them physically or bighorns, too rough on their joints. I know hunters that are out for a season or two because of an injury, but if those guys, especially the older ones, still identify themselves as a hunter, I sure as hell am not going to take that away from them. They are hunters or anglers to me as long as they self identify as such.

And if they cant get out there and hunt, but take their knowledge and skills, their advocacy (like driving to the legislature routinely) and apply it more to making sure that future generations still have something to hunt, giving back, as some of them express it, then I am all the more respectful of them for that.

 

[shoots-straight]

Shoots, I know Cal doesnt hunt cats anymore. I also know other older hunters that dont hunt elk because it is too hard on them physically or bighorns, too rough on their joints. I know hunters that are out for a season or two because of an injury, but if those guys, especially the older ones, still identify themselves as a hunter, I sure as hell am not going to take that away from them. They are hunters or anglers to me as long as they self identify as such.

And if they cant get out there and hunt, but take their knowledge and skills, their advocacy (like driving to the legislature routinely) and apply it more to making sure that future generations still have something to hunt, giving back, as some of them express it, then I am all the more respectful of them for that.

As I said before, he's a great advocate for cats! I never see him in Helena otherwise.

 

[tjones]

For me having my name mentioned with some of the names in that article would be cringe worthy.

 

[elkantlers]

I don't know what the laws are in Montana, But in Utah it would have been illegal to touch, let alone remove the trap by anyone other than the owner. The correct course of action would have been to notify the authorities and let them do an investigation. Someone is up to no good!

I trap and have a good relationship with the houndsman in my area. Every now and again I will catch a hound. What usually happens is the houndsman will remove the dog. when he gets home he gives me a call and lets me know which trap needs to be reset. I even have one old guy that will reset the trap. No harm no foul. What a lot of people misunderstand is they think the trap will harm a dog. This is normally not the case.

What I am saying is that trappers and houndsman can and do get along. They are alot stronger force together than they are separate. The troubles start when you get someone with an agenda and they start stirring the pot.

 

[BuzzH]

This doesn't surprise me one bit, that a cat hunter with an agenda would resort to this type of agenda.

I routinely attended general MTFWP meetings in Montana and the largest group of cry-babies in the crowd were always the cat hunters. Even back in the late 80's, many were against trapping/snaring bobcats...mainly because trappers were taking "their" bobcats.

Also, assuming that there is some incidental "take" of lions via trappers, its not the end of the world. Considering that lion harvest has dropped significantly in region 1 and region 2, a few getting their toes pinched in a trap is not going to have an impact on the lion population.

In the major drainage I grew up hunting in (region 2), the annual harvest of lions was 80-110 per year, and that harvest trend was pretty steady for a couple decades. This tells me that with the harvest staying relatively consistent for many years, that lions were not being over-hunted. That same area, was greatly restricted by the whining of the cat hunters, and turned into a "trophy" lion area. The harvest was reduced by over 80% and lion numbers climbed sharply.

From 1979-1999 I saw a total of 3 lions where I hunt. From 2000-2005 I saw 9 lions while hunting deer/elk in the same area. The number of tracks I see there also increased sharply, cutting 3-4 separate lion tracks a day is nothing out of the ordinary. I well remember the first lion track I ever saw was in 1981. I never saw another until 1984. From the mid-80's through the mid 90's I was seeing maybe 5-6 tracks per season.

Anyone that thinks a few lions being trapped, ran over by cars, etc. is going to have a negative impact on the lion populations we currently have in Montana right now, is completely wrong...and full of crap.

Western Montana needs to see increased lion harvest and increased quotas...no question, no debate.

Meanwhile....Wyoming is considering to allow legal trapping of lions.

 

[tjones]

Cal has been very vocal for many yesrs trying to get female lion harvest removed. As we all know, population numbers are controlled by the female harvest.

 

[.280 Remington]

I've never been able to figure out how the cat hunters have so much leverage in Montana. Especially in the western half where deer and elk numbers are often lower than the big game hunters would like. The small minority of cat hunters should not have so much control over game management.

 

[npaden]

I'm by no means an "experienced" trapper, but I've never seen an animals foot in a trap like that. It's like it would have had to have it's paw coming up from under the trap to get it's toes in there. It's backwards from what you would expect. I just don't see how it could have sprung the trap like that.

Not to mention that if it was trapped by it's toes, it might could have pulled a toe off, but there is no way the lion would have been able to pull it's entire foot off. The picture just doesn't make sense.

 

[tjones]

I've never been able to figure out how the cat hunters have so much leverage in Montana. Especially in the western half where deer and elk numbers are often lower than the big game hunters would like. The small minority of cat hunters should not have so much control over game management.

Yep

 

[mtmuley]

I hope a real investigation is done instead of just taking Cal and the "friend" at their word. Some folks in the Southern Bitterroot have their own way of doing things. mtmuley

 

[sbhooper]

This doesn't surprise me one bit, that a cat hunter with an agenda would resort to this type of agenda.

I routinely attended general MTFWP meetings in Montana and the largest group of cry-babies in the crowd were always the cat hunters. Even back in the late 80's, many were against trapping/snaring bobcats...mainly because trappers were taking "their" bobcats.

Also, assuming that there is some incidental "take" of lions via trappers, its not the end of the world. Considering that lion harvest has dropped significantly in region 1 and region 2, a few getting their toes pinched in a trap is not going to have an impact on the lion population.

In the major drainage I grew up hunting in (region 2), the annual harvest of lions was 80-110 per year, and that harvest trend was pretty steady for a couple decades. This tells me that with the harvest staying relatively consistent for many years, that lions were not being over-hunted. That same area, was greatly restricted by the whining of the cat hunters, and turned into a "trophy" lion area. The harvest was reduced by over 80% and lion numbers climbed sharply.

From 1979-1999 I saw a total of 3 lions where I hunt. From 2000-2005 I saw 9 lions while hunting deer/elk in the same area. The number of tracks I see there also increased sharply, cutting 3-4 separate lion tracks a day is nothing out of the ordinary. I well remember the first lion track I ever saw was in 1981. I never saw another until 1984. From the mid-80's through the mid 90's I was seeing maybe 5-6 tracks per season.

Anyone that thinks a few lions being trapped, ran over by cars, etc. is going to have a negative impact on the lion populations we currently have in Montana right now, is completely wrong...and full of crap.

Western Montana needs to see increased lion harvest and increased quotas...no question, no debate.

Meanwhile....Wyoming is considering to allow legal trapping of lions.

Right on. Good for Wyoming.

 

[Pagosa]

Like I said previously, I enjoy hunting with hounds. But there is a large number of houndsmen that will drive 100s of miles of backroads hoping to find a single hot track from the road while driving 10-30 mph, and when it doesn't happen they complain about too few of lions. And like Buzz explained there is good numbers of cats currently available. But walking may be required or in my case more experienced hounds and me becoming a better trainer. All houndsmen aren't arrogant, backwoods, lazy, mean to dogs, etc kind of people. I don't really care if I kill a cat or not, but like the challenge of training dogs. I think the outfitting business is the group behind the houndsmen groups. I hope the facts get sorted out in this investigation. Preston