Interesting......

[Carl 9.3x62]

Dang, 14 pages already. I might as well add my irrelevent opinion since I've been watching this thread like an eagle (although maybe one with a bit of lead poisoning).

Snowy's first point pretty much sums up my position for the most part. I know lead is bad for critters and humans, but it's hard to get all wound up about the chance of eating microscopic pieces of lead in my meat when you never hear about people getting lead poisoning from doing so, or even having health issues later in life that are directly linked to the consumption of leaded meat, especially when I swing by McDonalds for an egg mcmuffin on my way out of town to go hunting. Probably some ignorance on my part, I'll admit it.

But on the other hand, for my style of hunting and shooting, switching to monos would not be a big deal at all. Rather easy and cheap actually. I could go either way. However, the more my brother gives me crap for using leaded bullets the more I don't want to switch, haha.

 

[TOGIE]

Same goes for my health: I could ... floss more

don't get too hung up on flossing. i went to the dentist for the first time in ten years last week. lots of copenhagen has been chewed for a good chunk of those ten years; very, very little flossing; even a fair amount of cigarettes in college; not a lot of mouthwash either

she congratulated me on my oral hygiene, i almost fell out of my chair trying not to laugh.

still 29 years strong with zilcho cavities

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Good post with good perspective. The health aspects might get revised as your health deteriorates with age. Kind of like how people start wearing hearing protection after the start having problems.
How do you feel about the potential for a lead ban?
Do you feel like its
Non-existent?
Existing but imminent despite hunters efforts to reduce impacts.
Just don't care?

It would be a wild guess but I feel that it’s possible but not imminent. I think commissions will largely be tied up with CWD, trapping, and hunting technology for the near future in their efforts outside of business-as-usual duties. That’s probably biased toward my ecoregion. I’m not sure that those pushing for lead bans would be satisfied with any level of copper bullet hunting compliance, whether 25% or 75%. I could be wrong.

 

[longbow51]

And as for epistemology if you had to look it up you're just too young.

NEW INTRODUCTION TO STEPS TO AN ECOLOGY OF MIND

Steps to an Ecology of Mind, by G. Bateson. Foreword

www.oikos.org

 

[refuseresist]

This is probably a waste of bandwidth and it's too long, but another perspective to consider.

I shoot mostly lead despite being an ecosystem scientist, and am at least competent as one. I believe there are effects on birds of prey at varied spatiotemporal scales and potential health concerns for people.

P1: There are nearly infinite things I can do every day to lessen my impact on the environment as a whole, wildlife included. I can recycle, drive a more fuel efficient vehicle, drive less, look closely at where my clothing is sourced, live in a smaller home, buy less electronic gadgets, turn off light switches, unplug unused chargers, never use disposable utensils and plates, don't use plastic bags, hunt with copper bullets and it goes on. There are truly a limited number of measure I can gear up for before I just don't care anymore. Some of you are probably better humans than I am and get energized by each one of those things when you do them; but at some point I have other things to worry about, and copper bullets just aren't that high on the list. Same goes for my health: I could never drink alcohol again, exercise every day, give up caffeine, quit eating any sugar, eat only organic vegetables, take all the right vitamins, sleep more, watch less TV, floss more, wash raspberries before I eat them, ensure there is zero lead residue in my meat, etc. It's a balance of priorities and choices.

P2: I have several barrels worth of bullets on hand that I've proven to myself to be effective at killing animals at ranges short and long, and are also a joy to shoot long range on steel. On average they outperform copper ballistically by quite a bit. There is room for technology to close the gap to a great extent, or maybe entirely some day. When I invest days/bullets/powder/barrel life into being proficient with a bullet I don't want to shoot a different bullet when I go hunting. I learn how they slip the wind, how consistent they are at distance, and over time how they've performed on game. That's worth a lot to me.

I could develop copper hunting loads for all of my family's rifles in addition to what I've already cooked up, and mostly use lead at the range and on steel. I am doing that for my kids .243 right now in fact. What I don't like is the assumption that somebody else knows how much value P2 has for me, and why can't I stop being an ignorant, backwards sportsman. To be clear that's not the tone of most posters here, but it's the vibe I get at trade shows/wildlife events and the movement in general. If you deliver information to people like they're lesser, they won't care if you're right.

My point is there is something between "copper only" and "stubborn rednecks who hate science". In order for me to move to copper for all my hunting rifles I will need to see the performance on paper and game for myself, so that I'm comfortable saying I'm 100% as effective with that configuration. That might happen in two years or ten or never, we will see. Priorities and choices.

You make a good point that ethics, both personal and communal, exist on a spectrum.

I have my opinions and know what choice I would make. Others make different choices and that's fine. What I would like to see is more rigor and integrity applied when making said choices. And I don't only mean on Internet forum posts.

For example, a couple things said in this thread:

"I don't like being regulated." (Well, okay but we all are, and this argument is not nearly as useful as using data and legal precedent to argue one way or the other)

"I just don't see how [x] can be true." (Great. Maybe you're right! But the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you want to hold a credible argument on a science-based topic, you would do well to at least attempt to base your arguments on SOME sort of data.)

 

[Deleted member 16014]

That is a great rebuttal.

With regard to your #1 point, I agree, but I also think we all try to improve, bit by bit, step by step, relapses included, striving to do so is part of human experience. For me switching to copper was closer to switching to an engineering tape measure when doing home improvements than improving my flossing frequency (or heaven forbid my beer consumption). Once I made the switch, and sorted out some early confusion, there was zero additional effort.

Towards point #2. How much of your success to you attribute to or equipment, bullets included, versus your skill? The internet perception is that you'd still be lethal on big muley bucks with a slingshot.

Unless technology and bullet options change, I’m just not going to shoot large volumes with mono’s for practice. Which is fine. Multiple loads for multiple rifles is an inconvenience but not a problem.

I couldn’t say how much if any success could be attributed to a single component. To me it’s kinda all one thing. Of course anyone could and should be just as proficient with a copper bullet as anything else; it’s just that I’ve really wrung out some combos that work how I like and shot them a lot. It takes time, reloading tinkering, and rounds down range to do so for a few rifles. There are relatively very few options on the market from which to choose. I expect that may change, which would be great.

 

[mtmuley]

You make a good point that ethics, both personal and communal, exist on a spectrum.

I have my opinions and know what choice I would make. Others make different choices and that's fine. What I would like to see is more rigor and integrity applied when making said choices. And I don't only mean on Internet forum posts.

For example, a couple things said in this thread:

"I don't like being regulated." (Well, okay but we all are, and this argument is not nearly as useful as using data and legal precedent to argue one way or the other)

"I just don't see how [x] can be true." (Great. Maybe you're right! But the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you want to hold a credible argument on a science-based topic, you would do well to at least attempt to base your arguments on SOME sort of data.)

Are you a hunter? mtmuley

 

[refuseresist]

Are you a hunter? mtmuley

I only hunt tofu decoys with 6.5 cm

 

[mtmuley]

I only hunt tofu decoys with 6.5 cm

Successfully? Copper bullets? mtmuley

 

[refuseresist]

I’m still confused why everyone is so worried about lead projectiles, but fluoride in toothpaste or a water system is good? How about microwave ovens, hairspray, synthetic perfumes and scented candles? Background radiation from the natural environment (including if you like fossils), asphalt parking lots and roads, etc? I’ve heard that lead projectiles need to be banned for a while. Usually comes from the “I’m from the government and I’m here to help” crowd.

The dose makes the poison. Everything is toxic at a high enough amount. Back to my chocolate example:

LD50 for theobromine (chocolate) in humans is 1000mg/kg. It's 300mg/kg in dogs.

LD50 for water in a 150lb human is 5.4L. Can you imagine drinking over a gallon of water in just a few minutes?

LD50 for aspirin is 200mg/kg. that's 13 *grams* of aspirin for a 150lb human.

But what if you ingested 2g of aspirin every day for five years? What if you did it while drinking four beers a day?

You wouldn't be anywhere close to the median lethal dose. Does that mean you'd be in the clear? Hell no, chronic aspirin ingestion is pretty damn hepatotoxic.

 

[refuseresist]

Successfully? Copper bullets? mtmuley

just barely

 

[SAJ-99]

How do you feel about the potential for a lead ban?
Do you feel like its
Non-existent?
Existing but imminent despite hunters efforts to reduce impacts.
Just don't care?

I would like it because it would force the hand of manufacturers to produce more non-toxic. I have been trying to find a box for two years and 2021 isn’t looking good. For hand loaders it probably wouldn’t have as much of an impact, but the sunk cost of thousands of rounds of hand-loaded ammo stored in the basement for the coming apocalypse would cause them cry like children.

 

[refuseresist]

Hey everyone let's all help choose a name for this California Condor chick! https://www.lazoo.org/condorla1720/

 

[Sytes]

Dang, 14 pages already. I might as well add my irrelevent opinion

Welcome to Hunt Talk. We ramble on an internet forum... express our opinions and step back to reality because I hear my wife washing our dinner's dishes and know I'm in much more chit if I don't stop typing this and get to working, side by side with her. Off to salvage reality. Though it's been fun reading and posting away. Haha!

 

[Doublecluck]

Hey everyone let's all help choose a name for this California Condor chick! https://www.lazoo.org/condorla1720/

If I had 25k to spare I would drop it in a second and name him shrapnel

edit: maybe chip

 

[DegsinWisconsin]

I was reading all the comments last night and joined today just so I could share an eerie coincidence that happened today. Mind you, I have never been on the Hunttalk website before yesterday. Today, while eating a venison burger for lunch, I got something caught in one of my teeth. After I got it dislodged, I discovered it was a bullet fragment. I have been hunting for 37 years and have never had this happen before. A chill went up my spine and it really has me thinking about this issue.

 

[Trial153]

I was reading all the comments last night and joined today just so I could share an eerie coincidence that happened today. Mind you, I have never been on the Hunttalk website before yesterday. Today, while eating a venison burger for lunch, I got something caught in one of my teeth. After I got it dislodged, I discovered it was a bullet fragment. I have been hunting for 37 years and have never had this happen before. A chill went up my spine and it really has me thinking about this issue.

It was planted there the anti lead faction of HT. Oh before I forget .. nice mounts! And by the your milk expires tomorrow

 

[Deleted member 28227]

New study links lead ingestion to permanent ED

 

[TOGIE]

I was reading all the comments last night and joined today just so I could share an eerie coincidence that happened today. Mind you, I have never been on the Hunttalk website before yesterday. Today, while eating a venison burger for lunch, I got something caught in one of my teeth. After I got it dislodged, I discovered it was a bullet fragment. I have been hunting for 37 years and have never had this happen before. A chill went up my spine and it really has me thinking about this issue.

i completely forgot about this until you mentioned it

eating an antelope burger in december 2018. granted, it was a quartering away shot that blew up the front right shoulder and went through a lot of shoulder bone - probably could have cut a little more conservatively around that,. it took me a few hours to realize there was something more than just gristle and fat lodged in my teeth. how much did i swallow?:




i wasn't overly concerned, still aren't. more of a "how bout that" moment. maybe i should've been though. but hey, going the route that keeps me from consuming lead does seem the logical one

 

[Deleted member 18333]

i completely forgot about this until you mentioned it

eating an antelope burger in december 2018. granted, it was a quartering away shot that blew up the front right shoulder and went through a lot of shoulder bone - probably could have cut a little more conservatively around that,. it took me a few hours to realize there was something more than just gristle and fat lodged in my teeth. how much did i swallow?:

Given how you described your dental hygiene habits I'm surprised your dentist didn't pull a full accubond out of your teeth.