Interesting......

[Paul in Idaho]

I just have a hard time believing that golden eagles are getting enough lead from gut piles to even be detectable, much less harmful to them. I've always had trouble buying this.

I couldn't get the article to open, but I've read plenty stuff like it to surmise what it says.

About 10 years ago, I thought the same thing. I wanted to know more, and remembered that I had a deer heart in my freezer. I asked the veterinarian who cares for my dogs if he would x-ray the heart for me. He said yes, as he's also a hunter and was curious about the lead topic.

The results surprised me. That deer had been taken with a .30-06 180 grain Partition bullet that punched the aorta area a few inches away from the heart. Even though the bullet had not punctured the heart and I had done a very thorough cleaning of it before freezing, there were numerous metallic fragments visible on the xray film.

I didn't have the right equipment to get a perfect photo of the film. The attached image shows what I was able to capture with my camera. I could see more fragments than appear in this picture.

The best size comparison I can think of to describe the size of most lead fragments is ground black pepper. Specks that size are not easily visible in a gut pile. There are 2 larger fragments visible in the xray, but most are tiny.

The final factor in my personal decision to switch to copper bullets was simple math. Nosler advertises that Partition bullets retain 65-70% of their weight. That means 30-35% separates. If 30% of a 180gr bullet comes apart, that is 54 grains of bullet metal being dispersed. The USFWS says "Laboratory dosing studies show that about one grain of lead will cause poisoning in bald eagles." So, a single premium lead bullet may deposit 50 times the amount needed to make an eagle sick. Cheap lead bullets leave more fragments.

I personally see the conservation aspect of our hunting heritage as an essential responsibility to ensure the future of hunting. My personal definition of conservation requires me to not cause illness or death of any individuals of any species other than the single animal I intend to take for meat.

When I returned to my 2020 elk for the final load of meat, there was a golden eagle near it. I was glad to know I had provided a safe meal of elk entrails for that eagle and others by shooting the elk with a copper TTSX bullet. The performance of copper bullets both at the range and for hunting has been excellent in my rifle, and I see no advantage to returning to lead for hunting. I still shoot cheap lead ammo at the range when practicing.

 

[Elkmagnet]

I personally see the conservation aspect of our hunting heritage as an essential responsibility to ensure the future of hunting. My personal definition of conservation requires me to not cause illness or death of any individuals of any species other than the single animal I intend to take for meat.

This is a sportsmans perspective.

Imo If gut pile lead fragments were killing elk and deer hunters would be the first to organize a solution.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Also from a selfish perspective- We need more sportsman to care so we can get ahead of the situation before a lead ban. We are going to take a lot of shooting sports and potentially fishing down with us if we don't.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Serious question. Do raptors have gizzards?

I’ve never heard it referred to as a “gizzard” in raptors, but rather the ventriculus. A gizzard is a highly specialized, extra muscular type of ventriculus with a hard inner lining that serves to grind food, and it’s what most people are familiar with in granivorous species- chickens, turkeys, even ducks. The ventriculus in raptors looks very different on necropsy.

For the curious...I don’t have any necropsy photos at the moment, but here’s one from the web:

Raptor Gastrointestinal Anatomy and Physiology - LafeberVet

Raptors are a diverse group of birds that hunt and feed on other animals. Raptor gastrointestinal anatomy and physiology reflect their predatory lifestyle.

lafeber.com

It’s somewhat thickened, but the muscles are very poorly developed compared to other avian families, there is no hard inner cuticle layer, no grit gets picked, and it doesn’t “grind”. Maybe a slight massage, but it isn’t pulverizing anything like you’d see in upland game birds.

 

[MTTW]

Thanks for clearing things up.

 

[runningmt]

I am genuinely disappointed in the rejection of science from hunters.

 

[SaskHunter]

I am genuinely disappointed in the rejection of science from hunters.

Disappointing but not surprising. There are millions of grown adults who believe in stuff like 5G controlling vaccines/implant chips...

@Paul in Idaho that post is quite the eye opener. I've transitioned to Barnes TTSX in a couple of my rifles, because they simply group better, and this is another reason to stay the course. TBH, I still think people should make their own decisions but that educating people and moving the trend towards lead-free projos is a good idea!

 

[TheJason]

I am genuinely disappointed in the rejection of science from hunters.

I'm going to go chug some gasoline. I'll probably start chewing again because that science is probably also fake.

 

[refuseresist]

Disappointing but not surprising. There are millions of grown adults who believe in stuff like 5G controlling vaccines/implant chips...

@Paul in Idaho that post is quite the eye opener. I've transitioned to Barnes TTSX in a couple of my rifles, because they simply group better, and this is another reason to stay the course. TBH, I still think people should make their own decisions but that educating people and moving the trend towards lead-free projos is a good idea!

yea its not just hunters. we need a series of classes on epistemology all the way through middle and high school, imo

 

[Wind Gypsy]

So, still less the cost of your Deer/Elk combo.

The price issue is a red herring considering all the other things hunters spend cash on.

All of the rifles I have copper loads for have zero issues taking game ethically out to 400 yards and they all shoot under 1" at 100 yards and are ready to shoot out too 400 yards, whether their factory stock rifles or customs.

$800 annually a red herring? that’s about what it costs for a $1 million 30 year term life insurance policy for a 35 year old and a whole bunch of them can’t justify that.

So if it isn’t money you’re saying it’s purely performance? Ignorance? stubbornness?

 

[SaskHunter]

yea its not just hunters. we need a series of classes on epistemology all the way through middle and high school, imo

I had to google that which is kind of ironic. I'm not going to advance myself on the American public school system, but here in Canada, I can tell you that it is seriously lacking in many areas.

 

[SAJ-99]

So the next obvious question is how have me and my family avoided lead poisoning? We eat wild game just about every day and although I have an appreciation for Barnes bullets, I've never rifle-shot anything with lead free bullets. Serious question.

Good question. Below is the abstract from a study in Europe. Lead poisoning is slow, even for an eagle. It usually doesn't die next the carcass it got the lead from. It takes time and often the negative impacts are not obvious. You would need to study a group of children that consume wild game shot with lead to a group of children that don't and then measure cognitive differences. Big obstacle is we generally don't like putting kids in studies to begin with, and none of us can afford the drop in IQ.

Side note: You said you believed the birds were dying of lead poisoning but didn't think the dying eagle got he lead from a shot carcass. Where do you think it came from?

It has been known for centuries that lead is toxic to humans. Chronic exposure to lead, even at low levels, is associated with an elevated risk of cardiovascular and chronic kidney disease in adults and of impaired neurodevelopment and subsequent cognitive and behavioural development in the foetus and young children. Health agencies throughout the world have moved from assuming that there are tolerable levels of exposure to lead to a recognition that valid ‘no-effect’ thresholds cannot currently be defined. Formerly, the most important exposure pathways were occupational exposure, water from lead plumbing, paints, petrol additives and foods. Regulation of products and improved health and safety procedures at work have left dietary lead as the main remaining pathway of exposure in European countries. Ammunition-derived lead is now a significant cause of dietary lead exposure in groups of people who eat wild game meat frequently. These are mostly hunters, shoot employees and their families, but also some people who choose to eat game for ethical, health or other reasons, and their children. Extrapolation from surveys conducted in the UK and a review of studies of game consumption in other countries suggest that approximately 5 million people in the EU may be high-level consumers of lead-shot game meat and that tens of thousands of children in the EU may be consuming game contaminated with ammunition-derived lead frequently enough to cause significant effects on their cognitive development.

 

[Trial153]

In America science is only valid when your in agreement with the results and its sufficiently convenient.

 

[runningmt]

In America science is only valid when your in agreement with the results and its sufficiently convenient.

Spot on unfortunately

 

[Doublecluck]

Also from a selfish perspective- We need more sportsman to care so we can get ahead of the situation before a lead ban. We are going to take a lot of shooting sports and potentially fishing down with us if we don't.

I don’t understand, let’s quit using lead because it’s shitty for the environment so that they don’t ban it because it’s shitty for the environment. Lol. Ok Got it.


Ca is already trying to ban lead at shooting ranges, so goes Ca so goes the rest of the country.

Holsters for Beginners - 2A Cops

If you are new to the world of handguns, you might have some questions about holsters. As a guy who has carried a gun for more than 20 years, both concealed and open, I get asked for holster advice quite often. Generally speaking, a holster serves three main purposes: 1) it keeps the gun available …

2acops.com

Plenty of alternatives for fishing weights. yawn..

I think it’s possible that the subject is more complex than just me choosing to shoot copper and posting my proverbial black square (strange how that issue disappeared without change) on facespaceagram.

Will switching to shooting copper change the overall population of raptors or other species in a positive manner within the ecosystem? Or will it just mean we don’t find poisoned x on the landscape but the carrying capacity for each species x remains the same? Will hunters switching to lead increase the population of predators and how will that effect other species (also possibly endangered) like stephens kangaroo rat etc? Will I need to worry about small children being carried away from the grocery store parking lot by a golden eagle because they depleted their normal food source?Raptors in general seem to be doing well outside a select few. What are the economic effects of switching from lead to other? Approx 10 billion bullets are made a year, where will the increase in copper or x mineral come from and how does that effect the environment? It’s not like people are excited to have a new copper mine in their back yard. Is there alternative solutions to contamination? Can hunters be required to bury guy piles when using lead? Can they be required to remove animals whole amd then dispose of the remains in a safer manner? Can we create technology to ensure lead dues not enter processed game meat (x ray/metal detection)etc? Are there studies to confirm other species/the environment aren’t effected by copper or the potential increase in copper use or production? Are there any studies testing the lead blood levels in children and adults where the majority of meals are wild game meat harvested with a rifle (think remote villages/AK etc.) how do they compare to the non game consuming general population?

it’s estimated We’ve flung between 50-100 trillion lead bullets across this landscape called earth, rather it be at man or beast or targets. Like nearly all mans activities im sure they have had some effect on the environment and our own well being. But here we are in 2020 trying to understand the relevance of the choices of our past, I think it’s just as important to make wiser choices in the future. Does that mean we shoot copper? Or is there a even better alternative?

so I ask ? Why copper and why not laser beams? If I’m gonna make a switch from the most deadly bullet for game known to Man (the 168 Berger vld)! Than I want a laser gun at minimum!

Christ! Just a bunch of cranky old bastards figuring out how to pull another Mineral from the ground, destroy the earth , for a new projectile... yaaaaawn!

LASER BEAMS DAMMIT.. 2020, y’all saving the planet and you don’t even have laser guns yet.. god I hope the aliens hurry up and get here.. straighten your arses out.

 

[TheJason]

New study links lead ingestion to permanent ED

 

[refuseresist]

I don’t understand, let’s quit using lead because it’s shitty for the environment so that they don’t ban it because it’s shitty for the environment. Lol. Ok Got it.


Ca is already trying to ban lead at shooting ranges, so goes Ca so goes the rest of the country.

Holsters for Beginners - 2A Cops

If you are new to the world of handguns, you might have some questions about holsters. As a guy who has carried a gun for more than 20 years, both concealed and open, I get asked for holster advice quite often. Generally speaking, a holster serves three main purposes: 1) it keeps the gun available …

2acops.com

Plenty of alternatives for fishing weights. yawn..

I think it’s possible that the subject is more complex than just me choosing to shoot copper and posting my proverbial black square (strange how that issue disappeared without change) on facespaceagram.

Will switching to shooting copper change the overall population of raptors or other species in a positive manner within the ecosystem? Or will it just mean we don’t find poisoned x on the landscape but the carrying capacity for each species x remains the same? Will hunters switching to lead increase the population of predators and how will that effect other species (also possibly endangered) like stephens kangaroo rat etc? Will I need to worry about small children being carried away from the grocery store parking lot by a golden eagle because they depleted their normal food source?Raptors in general seem to be doing well outside a select few. What are the economic effects of switching from lead to other? Approx 10 billion bullets are made a year, where will the increase in copper or x mineral come from and how does that effect the environment? It’s not like people are excited to have a new copper mine in their back yard. Is there alternative solutions to contamination? Can hunters be required to bury guy piles when using lead? Can they be required to remove animals whole amd then dispose of the remains in a safer manner? Can we create technology to ensure lead dues not enter processed game meat (x ray/metal detection)etc? Are there studies to confirm other species/the environment aren’t effected by copper or the potential increase in copper use or production? Are there any studies testing the lead blood levels in children and adults where the majority of meals are wild game meat harvested with a rifle (think remote villages/AK etc.) how do they compare to the non game consuming general population?

it’s estimated We’ve flung between 50-100 trillion lead bullets across this landscape called earth, rather it be at man or beast or targets. Like nearly all mans activities im sure they have had some effect on the environment and our own well being. But here we are in 2020 trying to understand the relevance of the choices of our past, I think it’s just as important to make wiser choices in the future.

so I ask ? Why copper and why not laser beams? If I’m gonna make a switch from the most deadly bullet for game known to Man (the 168 Berger vld)! Than I want a laser gun at minimum!

Christ! Just a bunch of cranky old bastards figuring out how to pull another Mineral from the ground, destroy the earth , for a new projectile... yaaaaawn!

LASER BEAMS DAMMIT.. 2020, y’all saving the planet and you don’t even have laser guns yet.. god I hope the aliens hurry up and get here.. straighten your arses out.

your flippant tone combined with rhetorical questions makes it difficult to engage sincerely. (edit)

 

[rwc101]

New study links lead ingestion to permanent ED

Bastard.

 

[refuseresist]

Bastard.

i wonder how many are gonna click on that

 

[noharleyyet]

New study links lead ingestion to permanent ED

Yellow flag?