To protect eagles, hunters and conservationists rebuild old alliances (non-lead ammo)

[jryoung]

I love my lead ammo and definitely will not switch to copper unless it is government mandated. How many game animals are wounded and lost due to poor performance of non lead ammo? Nobody knows and apparently nobody cares. I’ve seen as many ducks and geese wounded and lost as I’ve seen bagged when steel shot is used. Somebody convinced my good friend that he needed to switch from lead bullets to copper for all the overblown reasons already stated above. He was shooting 1moa with cheap lead ammo and the premium copper ammo he stocked up on (for a big chunk of $$$) shoots 5moa…all over the paper. I told him to go back to the lead and ditch the coppers. He didn’t take my advice until missing elk 5 different times and HOPEFULLY not wounding anything. Save the eagles…When I haul my trash to the dump I see tons of eagles gorging on, breathing in and bathing in our toxic refuse. I’m sure you and your local landfill poison far more eagles in one year than my 1 or 2 bullets/year of lead ammo ever will. IMO this is the anti-hunting crowd cooking up a nonissue into an issue that they can use to vilify hunters. Copper pushers are obnoxious and have the their heads stuck up their …

Your buddy sticking with 5 MOA ammo and choosing to hunt with it has nothing to do with copper.

 

[oxn939]

My food is not saturated with toxic death and the food chain is not in imminent peril every time I fill a tag.

I hear what you're saying. The problem is that what I posted is not exaggerated or sensational- it is just a series of facts. Lead is a carcinogen, and shooting big game animals with lead bullets introduces it into your food and the environment. If that sound like a personal attack, perhaps it's worth a trip to look at some non toxic ammo options.

Best of luck for a safe and successful hunting season using whatever kind of ammo everyone decides on after making an educated decision.

 

[BucksnDucks]

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I hear what you're saying. The problem is that what I posted is not exaggerated or sensational- it is just a series of facts. Lead is a carcinogen, and shooting big game animals with lead bullets introduces it into your food and the environment. If that sound like a personal attack, perhaps it's worth a trip to look at some non toxic ammo options.

Best of luck for a safe and successful hunting season using whatever kind of ammo everyone decides on after making an educated decision.

Thanks for taking the time. I'm familiar with the data and take great care in butchering my own animals, whether shot by monos or bonded lead bullets. I would be leery of ground meat from a high-volume butcher as they will not be as careful and in general mix your deer with others in the shop. I understand it is a real issue but disagree it's to the degree described earlier.

Nothing personal, just a suggestion in approach to recommending non lead.
Best of luck to you as well.

 

[BAKPAKR]

The 1st of 3 shots into a bull elk this year was made with @Mustangs Rule in mind..
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But you are doing your part to minimize the proliferation of lead in the environment by using a diminutive 6.5…

 

[The Hedgehog]

But you are doing your part to minimize the proliferation of lead in the environment by using a diminutive 6.5…

Those light skinned target bullets blow apart into millions of little environmentally friendly pieces.

 

[woods89]

But you are doing your part to minimize the proliferation of lead in the environment by using a diminutive 6.5…

This theory makes me feel like a real conservationist for shooting 2 deer the other day with 69 gr. Sierra TMK.......

 

[TheTone]

I helped catch a golden eagle once that was taken to a raptor rehab. Zero testing was done but the rehabber declared it lead poisoning from gut piles as soon as it was caught. Interesting considering no rifle seasons were open at the time nearby.

 

[RealMuddyboots]

First lead is NOT a confirmed human carcinogen, it is classified by IARC International Agency for Research on Cancer (Agency that classifies ALL carcinogens accepted WORLDWIDE) classifies lead as 2B which means possible human carcinogen. Now understand this classification is weak since lead has been studied WORLDWIDE for over hundred years. When a MSD is written in the USA, classifications of carcinigenocity is based upon IARC. You cannot equivocally state lead is a carcinogen since there are no legitimate accepted epidemeological studies proving out this connection thus "possible" is stated. If there was a confirmed link, it would be class 1 and it is not so at this time. A Class 2A is still "probable" and not absolute.

Being classified in CA as one is not based on science just politics of Prop 65. Hell CA classifies many compounds as carcinogen which are scientifically not so.

Is lead potentially toxic? Yes but for different reasons not carcinogenic. Let's use real science not CDC type BS unscience propoganda.

Recently, there was a movement to ban lead cannonballs for downrigger trolling. Please show me any animal that can ingest a 10 lb cannonball.

Also realize lead solder has been used for over 100 years in drinking water copper pipe brazing so there is plenty of study opportunity that has not proven a carcinogenic link.

 

[mtmuley]

Those light skinned target bullets blow apart into millions of little environmentally friendly pieces.

I hear ya. The lead fragments from my rifle bury into the ground so deep raptors can't get to them. mtmuley

 

[TheTone]

I hear ya. The lead fragments from my rifle bury into the ground so deep raptors can't get to them. mtmuley

I wish I had taken a picture of the divot my bullet took out fo the ground this year post pass through

 

[Horseman]

Your buddy sticking with 5 MOA ammo and choosing to hunt with it has nothing to do with copper.

I’d say it does have a lot to do with copper. A hypothetical hunter that shoots factory ammo on a limited budget decides they’re going to shoot copper. He or she walks into the sporting goods store and luckily find 2 copper options in their caliber while there are at least 3 lead options in their caliber most of which are considerably cheaper than copper. One copper option is $90/box and the other is $70box. This hunter buys 3 boxes of the $70 ‘premium’ ammo (a big chunk of $ for most people). He or she takes it to sight in a day or two before the season opens and gets very poor accuracy. This hunter has 8 of their old lead shells left-not enough to sight in again and hunt and also they don’t feel good about buying more ammo when they still have 2.5 boxes of the expensive copper bullets left. Many of the hunters I know, even some excellent hunters imo would say F it and go hunt. A lot of new hunters (the most susceptible to the copper craze) simply don’t understand moa and how accuracy exponentially deteriorates and therefore figure 4-5inches at 100yds is plenty good enough to hit the side of such a big animal-so they go hunting and miss or wound every 200yd+ shot they are presented with.
I handload for my custom rifles. I don’t enjoy hand loading like I did when I was younger- I find it tedious. I have tried two brands of copper over the years and found that I had to do twice as much shooting and loading to achieve 3/4-1/2moa. I also wasn’t happy with terminal performance. With copper I’ve mostly witnessed very small wound channels, animals that barely react to impact and I never can hear a copper bullet hit like I can with lead.
My current lead projectile shoots under 1/4moa. All I had to do was load and shoot a powder charge ladder test. Never had to mess with seating depth or other components like I did when trying to get the expensive copper to shoot. What the heck is the difference between 1/2 moa and 1hole groups in a hunting rifle? CONFIDENCE-confidence is deadly and I have no confidence in copper bullets…or steel shot. Oh yeah and a year ago I briefly entertained the idea of trying copper bullets again but when I got on midway USA to purchase there were zero copper options available. Might be a good idea to stay away from the semi precious metal that is heavily used by almost every major industry in the world and stick with effective and abundant lead.

 

[jryoung]

I’d say it does have a lot to do with copper. A hypothetical hunter that shoots factory ammo on a limited budget decides they’re going to shoot copper. He or she walks into the sporting goods store and luckily find 2 copper options in their caliber while there are at least 3 lead options in their caliber most of which are considerably cheaper than copper. One copper option is $90/box and the other is $70box. This hunter buys 3 boxes of the $70 ‘premium’ ammo (a big chunk of $ for most people). He or she takes it to sight in a day or two before the season opens and gets very poor accuracy. This hunter has 8 of their old lead shells left-not enough to sight in again and hunt and also they don’t feel good about buying more ammo when they still have 2.5 boxes of the expensive copper bullets left. Many of the hunters I know, even some excellent hunters imo would say F it and go hunt. A lot of new hunters (the most susceptible to the copper craze) simply don’t understand moa and how accuracy exponentially deteriorates and therefore figure 4-5inches at 100yds is plenty good enough to hit the side of such a big animal-so they go hunting and miss or wound every 200yd+ shot they are presented with.
I handload for my custom rifles. I don’t enjoy hand loading like I did when I was younger- I find it tedious. I have tried two brands of copper over the years and found that I had to do twice as much shooting and loading to achieve 3/4-1/2moa. I also wasn’t happy with terminal performance. With copper I’ve mostly witnessed very small wound channels, animals that barely react to impact and I never can hear a copper bullet hit like I can with lead.
My current lead projectile shoots under 1/4moa. All I had to do was load and shoot a powder charge ladder test. Never had to mess with seating depth or other components like I did when trying to get the expensive copper to shoot. What the heck is the difference between 1/2 moa and 1hole groups in a hunting rifle? CONFIDENCE-confidence is deadly and I have no confidence in copper bullets…or steel shot. Oh yeah and a year ago I briefly entertained the idea of trying copper bullets again but when I got on midway USA to purchase there were zero copper options available. Might be a good idea to stay away from the semi precious metal that is heavily used by almost every major industry in the world and stick with effective and abundant lead.

Again the choices you highlight in the first paragraph are just poor decision making at every level that have nothing to do with copper. It could be they want to shoot ultra-premium lead ammo from a custom ammo maker that sprinkles pixie dusts on the cases. Make sure it works before you invest too much. Make sure it works before you hit the field. Dumb decision on top of dumb decision.

As for the latter part, I never had to do much with copper to get it to shoot in any of my rifles. From Savages and M70s from the 50's, 700s from the 70's and 80's to customs....factory or handloads. Sure components have been scarce, but they're out there, especially now if you look. Hammer bullets has always been well stocked.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I’d say it does have a lot to do with copper.

Nope. It has 100% to do with him being dumber than a doornail.

 

[Irrelevant]

Nope. It has 100% to do with him being dumber than a doornail.

From eating too much lead?

Sorry... couldn't help it

 

[The Hedgehog]

From eating too much lead?

Sorry... couldn't help it

Maybe eating paint chips as a baby

 

[old270hunter]

I’m out of popcorn.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

I’d say it does have a lot to do with copper. A hypothetical hunter that shoots factory ammo on a limited budget decides they’re going to shoot copper. He or she walks into the sporting goods store and luckily find 2 copper options in their caliber while there are at least 3 lead options in their caliber most of which are considerably cheaper than copper. One copper option is $90/box and the other is $70box. This hunter buys 3 boxes of the $70 ‘premium’ ammo (a big chunk of $ for most people). He or she takes it to sight in a day or two before the season opens and gets very poor accuracy. This hunter has 8 of their old lead shells left-not enough to sight in again and hunt and also they don’t feel good about buying more ammo when they still have 2.5 boxes of the expensive copper bullets left. Many of the hunters I know, even some excellent hunters imo would say F it and go hunt. A lot of new hunters (the most susceptible to the copper craze) simply don’t understand moa and how accuracy exponentially deteriorates and therefore figure 4-5inches at 100yds is plenty good enough to hit the side of such a big animal-so they go hunting and miss or wound every 200yd+ shot they are presented with.
I handload for my custom rifles. I don’t enjoy hand loading like I did when I was younger- I find it tedious. I have tried two brands of copper over the years and found that I had to do twice as much shooting and loading to achieve 3/4-1/2moa. I also wasn’t happy with terminal performance. With copper I’ve mostly witnessed very small wound channels, animals that barely react to impact and I never can hear a copper bullet hit like I can with lead.
My current lead projectile shoots under 1/4moa. All I had to do was load and shoot a powder charge ladder test. Never had to mess with seating depth or other components like I did when trying to get the expensive copper to shoot. What the heck is the difference between 1/2 moa and 1hole groups in a hunting rifle? CONFIDENCE-confidence is deadly and I have no confidence in copper bullets…or steel shot. Oh yeah and a year ago I briefly entertained the idea of trying copper bullets again but when I got on midway USA to purchase there were zero copper options available. Might be a good idea to stay away from the semi precious metal that is heavily used by almost every major industry in the world and stick with effective and abundant lead.

A lot of what you say has enough truth to it, so I will not argue beyond saying that you have collected all the worse scenarios.

In one form or another I have had and seen all those experiences play out, especially during those earlier years when Barnes was beginning.

All that said, I was a seasonal hunting guide when those lead bans first began, had to have clients use non lead by law and private landowner requests. I was livid about having to abandon 25 years of pet reloads as well.

I should add that I was also a high school science teacher back then with skills to examine the lead issues environmentally and in regard to my personal health and consequences to others especially children.

That alone ended the use of lead bullets for me. The only lead I would hunt with now would be a muzzle-loader which does not fragment like modern hi velocity chamberings, literally leaving hundreds of small and thereby easily digestible fragments up to 14 inches from the entry wound.

Barnes are tricky to reload. Once the learning curve has been met however, I get great sub MOA accuracy from them
.
One of the most critical issues it that they are best fired in a barrel that is gilded with Barnes copper by having fired a few rounds.

The OAL is tricky yes, and this would seem to be a problem with factory ammo but whatever Barnes has done is now producing groups boggle my mind. Cloverleafs with my 1952 model 70 in .270.

What is within the reach of most any curious hunter is finding out just how much damage lead from bullets really does to the environment and scavenging animals. and how much it affects us and children.

Digging into that information will unavoidably result in hunters having a sense of deep betrayal from the shooting industry, which simply places a much higher value on protecting the huge heavy metal industries than hunters feeding their families.

Once you dig into these lead bullet issues, the misinformation is just disgusting.

There was a joint research study my both Washington State University Vet School and the nearby University of Idaho.

They shot pigs with high velocity lead bullets then fed that meat to pregnant sows. They followed the lead to the unborn piglets. The results were conclusive.

Just another reason why food pantries feeding the poor will only accept venison from archery hunters who prove this by showing their tags.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

To get a fuller understanding of environmental issues, like lead bullets for example, one has to look at the relationship between the CDC, the Center for Disease Control, and the CDC Foundation which is a private organization.

What goes on with these two organizations, one governmental and one private, is trying to meet both public health needs and private business needs. Health versus wealth one could say.

Going way back, private profit ruled, and public health and environmental quality suffered.

As health/medical sciences became more capable of seeing damages at lower and lower levels of toxins, as the soaring health costs could no longer be denied, new standards needed to be met and these two organizations are doing a better than ever job

Gradually we are trying to clean up the mess, but not without conflicts of interest. Dealing with all heavy metal use in industry, is an area of great public health/business profit conflicts

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Hmm, last thoughts before I go out and do more work building my horse barn,,,and yes I do have a mustang, an 11 year old mare named Rose.

Soon I will be 75 years old, and this hunting season will be my 57th big game season.

I have one blanket rule about hunting. I will not hunt in any way which is "Bad Biology". Hunting with lead bullets is real bad biology!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Hedgehog]