To protect eagles, hunters and conservationists rebuild old alliances (non-lead ammo)

[bucdoego]

Article dated October 25th. I've moved to copper bullets for all centerfire ammo (...for other reasons). Rimfire is another story. I haven't shot a shotgun load in decades. I'm curious as to how HuntTalkers view the issue.

To protect eagles, hunters and conservationists rebuild old alliances​

To protect eagles, hunters and conservationists rebuild old alliances - High Country News

Evidence of the toxic effects of lead ammunition on wildlife spurs a search for common ground.

www.hcn.org

The golden eagle did not fly, even when Hannah Nikonow pulled over, climbed out of her car and approached the bird on a cold January day. As she closed the 10-foot gap between them, it drooped its head and clenched its talons, clearly distressed but incapable of moving. Nikonow threw a blanket over its head, placed it in her car and called Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks. Then she drove to the Wild Skies Raptor Center in Potomac, Montana.

There, tests revealed the bird had 130 micrograms per deciliter of lead in its blood. Even tiny amounts of lead can be harmful to eagles, but levels above 60 micrograms per deciliter are considered clinical poisoning. Biologists administered chemical flushes to wash the lead away, but the bird died nine days later.

Nikonow encountered the eagle in the Garnet Mountains of western Montana, a place teeming with wildlife year-round and, in the fall, hunters like herself. She grew up hunting in Worland, Wyoming, and switched from lead to copper ammunition in college after she learned about the dangers lead poses to wildlife. The eagle was likely poisoned while eating a carcass killed with lead. “I can change myself, but if everyone else is still using lead … these animals are going to die,” she said. [more,,,]

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Sorry I missed your post till now. I totally support everything you are saying. I went non lead 1n 2008. I would never go back.

In the first two years after i stopped using lead bullets my blood lead level went from 5.5 to 3 mg. with my blood lead level

 

[Oak]

Here are 16 pages on the topic.

Interesting......

https://ravallirepublic.com/news/local/article_6974dd15-a790-56f0-b450-40cc691f97a4.html#tracking-source=home-top-story mtmuley

www.hunttalk.com

 

[S_fontinalis]

I’ve been shooting lead free since 2007, and my results have been so good I have no interest in going back.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

I once was a licensed hunting guide in the Condor area in California. I was able to operate year-round since i guided near exclusively for wild boar.

One of the biggest reasons i stopped guiding was having hunters show up without non-lead bullets which was required by law.

Well in advance when a hunter booked a hunt, i would in include in by booking contract a disclosure that the law required non-lead bullets and also the owners of the 3,000 acre barley ranch where i had exclusive hunting rights insisted that no lead bullets be used.

They had already seen too many scavenging birds and birds of prey and even foxes and coyotes get lead poisoned from bullets fragments, especially after a run of ground squirrel shooting,

The idea that only birds get lead poisoning and not mammals is no sense nonsense.

Anyway, even after I put in writing, I still had so many arguments with hunters showing up with lead bullets that I just stopped guiding,

 

[Mustangs Rule]

In a joint study with the Vet school at Washington State University and nearby University of Idaho they shot pigs with lead core bullets then fed the meat to pregnant sows.

It was a wakeup call about how much lead got into the sow and her unborn piglets.

That is why food pantries will now only accept donated venison from archers.

 

[Caseknife]

I've been lead free for a couple decades and am glad that I made the switch. We have a Bald Eagle nest close by and I love to put out my meat scraps/bone pile where I can watch the wildlife. Amazing how quick a few eagles, ravens, magpies etc can totally clean up everything. I don't have any desire to poison the bird/wildlife population if I can help it.

Never thought of having my own blood tested for lead prior to going to copper. Would have made an interesting study.

 

[Rhcuam]

I have no plans of switching. Zero concerns.
Switch if you want, don’t mandate others to do the same. Pushing this crap gets old.

 

[belshawelk]

I have switched 50% to copper not because of the lead issue, but because the all copper bullets are better in high velocity, high energy guns, especially if you are one like me that will take shoulder shots. I shoot Barnes LRX in both my .30 Nosler and my 6.5-300. For those guns they were the most accurate. I still use lead in everything else ( typically Nosler Accubond or Hornady Superformance. Like my .28 Nosler, 300WM, .243 and 6.5 and some others.

my decision on what to use is simple. Accuracy and what i am hunting, do I need a bullet that will stay together a little better of I take a shoulder shot. I have no issues with any of the lead bullets, but those who haven't tried copper are perhaps missing a better option for their rifle.

 

[Brad W]

This will probably open a can of worms but where does the anti-mono sentiment come from? Did the early mono bullets have performance issues? My brother and I have essentially only used various Barnes(expander, ttsx, lrx)monos over the last 8 years and in 2 dozen animals out to 350yds they are devastating and very accurate in my 20ga, 6.5 prc, and two different ’06s. I am always kind of surprised by much folks get worked up about the lead free issue. At this point I don’t see any downside to monos below 500 yds. If you think hunting is shooting animals at 1000 yds then I get the KE argument, but we will have to agree to disagree on whether that is good for hunting and the resource (fighting words I know ).

 

[BucksnDucks]

Sorry I missed your post till now. I totally support everything you are saying. I went non lead 1n 2008. I would never go back.

In the first two years after i stopped using lead bullets my blood lead level went from 5.5 to 3 mg. with my blood lead level

What do you think the caused the high level? Ingestion of meat, handling lead, or something else?

 

[Foxtrot1]

Does it happen? Absolutely. Is it limiting eagle recovery, no.

I used to volunteer at one of the largest raptor hospitals in the SE. Birds were flown in from across the country. Eagles came in with botulism from cropping up too much, transmission line electrocutions, gunshots, vehicle strikes, etc... it is a dangerous world for wildlife.

If you want to shoot non toxic and it works for you, keep doing it. Do I think it should be mandated, no. Honestly there are bigger concerns for conservation. I lay away at night worrying about development, habitat fragmentation, the effect of politics on wildlife management, and whether we can ever learn to have a sustainable lifestyle in this country. Lead ammo doesn't make the list.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

What do you think the caused the high level? Ingestion of meat, handling lead, or something else?

Back then I was living off wild meat all year. A year-round wild boar season made that possible.

The only factor that changed was no longer eating meat shot with lead core bullets

 

[sierrahunter]

Nonlead ammo is a no-brainer. There’s a reason it has been required for waterfowl hunting since 1991. I understand how some hunters can feel like the lead issue is another infringement of our sport, but it’s not. Also, this isn’t one of those live-and-let-live issues. Wildlife, both game and non-game, is a public resource and we ought to be managing it wisely. If we can reduce collateral injury to scavengers, we should.

Let’s be smart about this: do we really want to fall on our sword for shooting toxic ammo at our food? I’ve been using copper slugs for over a decade, and you really can’t argue with the performance. It’s also nice not to bite into a venison burger and have to pull a lead fragment from your molar, but apparently some prefer this tradition.

Time to pick our battles, gents, and lead ammo isn’t one of them.

 

[GGress]

I'm curious, how does law enforcement tell if I am shooting mono bullets, or plastic tipped cup and core? They look the same, I load my own so I don't have the box they came in, and I could put them in a mono box anyway.

 

[nastynate]

For what it's worth, the Minnesota DNR did an experiment that showed not all lead-containing bullets are equally bad w/ respect to lead fragmentation. Those that end up with lower weight retention (cup and core/ballistic tips) are obviously shedding lead into the carcass. Those that are all copper are not. But lead core bullets that are heavily constructed/surrounded by copper (this study looked at winchester xp3) aren't near as bad as the cup and core/ballistic tips. So for those that still want to use lead for one reason or another, you can check those out for yourselves. Personally, I use copper because there is no downside for me in performance and I don't like the idea of poisoning wildlife, which absolutely happens at some level. No it won't drive eagles extinct, but I'd prefer to end my hunting career having killed/poisoned 0 eagles.

From the experiment shooting carcasses with different bullets:

Copper and non-exposed lead core: These bullets averaged nine copper fragments in the animal with an average maximum distance from the wound channel of seven inches. By design, copper bullets leave no lead and the few fragments that were seen on x-ray were less than an inch from the exit wound. Overall, both of these bullet designs fragmented very little and left no lead.

Ballistic tip (rapid expansion): These bullets had the highest fragmentation rate, with an average of 141 fragments per carcass and an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the wound channel. In one carcass, a fragment was found 14 inches from the exit wound.

Soft point (rapid expansion): These bullets left an average of 86 fragments at an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the wound channel. In this research, bonded lead-core bullets (controlled expansion, exposed lead core) performed almost identically to the soft-core bullets and left an average of 82 fragments with an average maximum distance of nine inches from the wound.

https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/lead/lead-study-summary.pdf

 

[BucksnDucks]

Nonlead ammo is a no-brainer. There’s a reason it has been required for waterfowl hunting since 1991. I understand how some hunters can feel like the lead issue is another infringement of our sport, but it’s not. Also, this isn’t one of those live-and-let-live issues. Wildlife, both game and non-game, is a public resource and we ought to be managing it wisely. If we can reduce collateral injury to scavengers, we should.

Let’s be smart about this: do we really want to fall on our sword for shooting toxic ammo at our food? I’ve been using copper slugs for over a decade, and you really can’t argue with the performance. It’s also nice not to bite into a venison burger and have to pull a lead fragment from your molar, but apparently some prefer this tradition.

Time to pick our battles, gents, and lead ammo isn’t one of them.

It seems you're a supporter of a lead ammo ban, which is great. I shoot monos in most of my rifles with very good results. I do however offer a little critique in your approach if your hopes are to bring hunters together to agree with your position.

• Don't start with the no-brainer and "be smart" comments. Plenty of highly intelligent people have questioned the necessity of banning lead in all hunting scenarios. It's a bit condescending
• The stated reasons it was required for waterfowl are different than upland hunting, predators or big game
• Copper shotgun slugs have been troublesome, especially a decade ago. If by "slug" you mean bullet or rifle projectile, they perform very well.
• Phrases like "shooting toxic ammo at food" seem a bit over the top. I can't speak for everyone but in 40 plus years of eating game shot with a rifle, I've never experienced anyone pulling lead from their molars. That one seems like a butcher problem.

If the "battle" is banning lead in all hunting scenarios, similar to CA I think it should receive serious push back. If you're picking when and where or trying to educate for voluntary non lead use, I think better results will be achieved.

 

[BrentD]

Time to pick our battles, gents, and lead ammo isn’t one of them.

It might be for me.

 

[sierrahunter]

It seems you're a supporter of a lead ammo ban, which is great. I shoot monos in most of my rifles with very good results. I do however offer a little critique in your approach if your hopes are to bring hunters together to agree with your position.

• Don't start with the no-brainer and "be smart" comments. Plenty of highly intelligent people have questioned the necessity of banning lead in all hunting scenarios. It's a bit condescending
• The stated reasons it was required for waterfowl are different than upland hunting, predators or big game
• Copper shotgun slugs have been troublesome, especially a decade ago. If by "slug" you mean bullet or rifle projectile, they perform very well.
• Phrases like "shooting toxic ammo at food" seem a bit over the top. I can't speak for everyone but in 40 plus years of eating game shot with a rifle, I've never experienced anyone pulling lead from their molars. That one seems like a butcher problem.

If the "battle" is banning lead in all hunting scenarios, similar to CA I think it should receive serious push back. If you're picking when and where or trying to educate for voluntary non lead use, I think better results will be achieved.

Please. The OP asked for opinions. I gave mine. You’re welcome to agree or disagree.

Here’s my critique on your condescending and misinformed reply:

-If you wish to engage in an informed discussion, you should not make assumptions. I’m not promoting a lead ban, and never said anything like it. We ought to be smart enough to make good decisions without government intervention.

-You are patently incorrect about the waterfowl lead ban. The USFWS maintained from the beginning that lead shot was responsible for poisoning bald eagles and waterfowl.

-You seem to want your information spoon-fed to you. If you don’t like reading how lead is toxic and game is food, I suggest you find a safe space. I’m not interested in mincing words.

-Lastly, you missed my point entirely about picking our battles. We should NOT battle over whether or not lead is a bad idea. The battle is the survival of our sport entirely. If we quibble over small and proven issues like how lead poisons wildlife, we lose credibility and will ultimately lose the war that is waging on our sport at large.

 

[oxn939]

where does the anti-mono sentiment come from?

The fact that many people's knee jerk reaction is to resist change, no matter how good the reasons for it are. Lead bullets are, plainly, outdated technology. Look at the "ELD-X failures" thread or any of the articles about raptors suffering acute lead poisoning during hunting season... these are two very significant public relations black eyes for our community, which could be largely or completely avoided by simply not shooting lead.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm happy to take an extra range trip or two before season to make sure there aren't second or third order effects causing wildlife and hunting in general to suffer as a result of my actions.