The housing shortage and public lands

[TOGIE]

They’ve stymied outward growth, but they’ve also stymied upward growth.

The result is that the outward growth jumps the “green belt” and happens in the surrounding towns like Louisville, Longmont, Lafayette, and Erie, and those people still drive into Boulder to work, dine, etc. Not really an improvement IMO.

In the face of growth, shutting your doors and saying “we’re closed” only pushes it elsewhere so the sprawl monster can consume yet another open space and poop out a subdivision.

Boulder’s ethos is no different than most communities: “not in my backyard!”. They just happen to be much better it.

Yes. It’s nice if you live there (I did for a while), but the prevailing attitude towards development only fuels the suburban hellscape devouring the Front Range.

i mean yes and no. you're not wrong, it does jump the green belt due to that. but i still don't see it as that simple.

I don't think Boulder's policies are the reason Erie is blowing up. First and foremost Erie is blowing up because of Erie's policies. Most of Erie doesn't even reside within Boulder County, it's Weld County. Erie has quite the hunger for growth (I'm actually having a house built in Erie as we type).

the root of it all is that people are moving here. sprawling new homes in longmont and erie has nothing to do with boulder. it has everything to do with the demand for homes. i think it's a damn good thing that boulder is preserving that open space in the midst of the development chaos surrounding it.

so i mean... what's your point? that it would it be better for Boulder to convert all of their many open spaces to small-lot single family homes instead? the people will move here, and the homes will be built. that part is inevitable. I'm not gonna vilify boulder in any way for sticking to their guns.

 

[thebestusernamesaretaken]

There are multiple issues related to valuation of the initial stock and self-dealing rules and prohibited transactions under IRC §4795. As long as the IRS is underfunded there probably won't be much enforcement. But if the average person goes to the vast majority of tax attorneys and/or CPAs when starting a business and say that want it to be owned by their Roth IRA the answer is going to be "no way am I touching that transaction".

I don't know any that would do that

 

[thebestusernamesaretaken]

Same thing down here in southwest florida . Everyone thinks their subdivision should have been the last one built. When I hear people complaining I ask where they live.
My usual response is oh yes I know that area well. I used to hunt there back in the 80s.

You should hear my in-laws talk about people moving into AZ. They moved there from HI 30 years ago and you would think that they should have closed the boarder after that.

 

[BigHornRam]

wasnt there

But I think that I can tell you that the Secret Service did tell me (a long time ago), that Oswald was the only shooter - was a lone shooter and they dismissed any other theory’s as conjecture. You will have to decide for yourself if you belive what they belive to be true.

This version is the one I subscribe to....

Dallas Did Not Kill JFK | Essay, Nexus | Zócalo Public Square

The upcoming 50th anniversary of the murder of President John F. Kennedy by Lee Harvey Oswald has already produced, in addition to thoughtful

www.zocalopublicsquare.org

 

[cedahm]

I do feel like we are losing a lot of that weird, that I love, because western towns are being subjected to the "ticky tacky" of the rest of the nation.

If there is a single place in CO I loath it's not boulder it's Highlands Ranch. If there is something that we are importing from CA that is destroying the state it's Highlands Ranch.

I can almost see H.R. from my front porch. My brother and sister in-law live there. My son played on a HR baseball team the last 2 seasons. I have still always loathed it and generally curse it every time I'm there (which is pretty frequently given the above). However, I have to grudingly admit they've done a better job than most "new" developments maintaining green space, public-use lands, etc. The 'danger' is that neighborhoods continue to pop up to the Southwest (as I'm sure @LuketheDog is very familiar with).

There are some pretty rigid boundaries to that expansion with two state parks, the Denver Water property in Waterton and a National Forest, but it's filling in quickly in the valley along Plum creek and Castle Rock and HR will be connected pretty soon. Douglas county's population has increased 100% the last 20 years and my adjacent county has grown 35%. I can still go find elk, bears, sheep and deer 12 miles from home (even closer for cats and whitetails). But I wonder how much longer that's going to last.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I can almost see H.R. from my front porch. My brother and sister in-law live there. My son played on a HR baseball team the last 2 seasons. I have still always loathed it and generally curse it every time I'm there (which is pretty frequently given the above). However, I have to grudingly admit they've done a better job than most "new" developments maintaining green space, public-use lands, etc. The 'danger' is that neighborhoods continue to pop up to the Southwest (as I'm sure @LuketheDog is very familiar with).

There are some pretty rigid boundaries to that expansion with two state parks, the Denver Water property in Waterton and a National Forest, but it's filling in quickly in the valley along Plum creek and Castle Rock and HR will be connected pretty soon. Douglas county's population has increased 100% the last 20 years and my adjacent county has grown 35%. I can still go find elk, bears, sheep and deer 12 miles from home (even closer for cats and whitetails). But I wonder how much longer that's going to last.

Yeah the maze of stupid that is HR is the worst development debacle of the last 100 years. You can't walk to anything... it's a dumpster fire of urban planning. 8mm people in NYC, 5.6MM in Singapore each a fraction of the size of the Denver Metro, yet both are a much better place to live.

If you put a glass dome over HR and NYC and said you have to pick one I would choose NYC everyday. The only appeal, as you alluded to, of HR is that you can leave.

That's the whole problem with Denver and CA for that matter. Walkability scores of CO cities = go-f-yourself. Therefore, every weekend the entire city loads up and heads to the mountains. Livable cities would greatly reduce the environmental impact these metros on the rest of the state. Why not drive to summit county to ride your bike if you have to load up your car to ride anyway.

 

[Mountain Man]

We lost spring bear hunting in 92' so I'm not shocked wolves passed. Pissed but not shocked.

I do feel like we are losing a lot of that weird, that I love, because western towns are being subjected to the "ticky tacky" of the rest of the nation.

I vividly recall the vote in 92’. I was 10 years old and my dad was trying to talk to everyone he could about why they should vote no. It was the only time I ever saw him actively “campaign” for a ballot measure. He was pretty crushed when the measure passed.

I agree that the smaller western towns are losing their quirky allure. I think it is tied more to generational differences and population growth than political affiliation.

 

[thebestusernamesaretaken]

This version is the one I subscribe to....

Dallas Did Not Kill JFK | Essay, Nexus | Zócalo Public Square

The upcoming 50th anniversary of the murder of President John F. Kennedy by Lee Harvey Oswald has already produced, in addition to thoughtful

www.zocalopublicsquare.org

Locations do tend to get blamed a lot for bad things that happen in them. I think that it's only natural especially for people who don’t live there, to assign blame to a place for those people who have not taking corrective actions for things that everyone can see in hindsight.

People believe that dominate social and political leanings in a certain location provide an incubator for things to come. Truth is that people are people everywhere and are all capable of good and evil simultaneously given the situation that they find themselves in.

Blaming a place for bad stuff is all about perception in many cases. Whenever you hear about violence in the streets of Chicago, LA, NY Philadelphia or Atlanta it makes since to folks – people expect violent crime to happen in those locations because of gangs / drugs _____ (insert political gripe here). BTY, you read lots of folks writing about their assumptions on this stuff on this forum.

When folks hear about a shooting in TX, it makes since to some because of all the perceived AR-15 nutjobs that live there. When folks hear about a violent anti-race crime in the South East it’s because of the perceived rightwing racist Klan members. When folks hear about anti-social behavior in the Western Mountain States, they perceive that it’s because a non-resident hunter showed up at the trail head

 

[Gerald Martin]

Seem to also have a PhD in taking everything you read on a hunting forum as dead serious.
Since the clarification is needed for Ontario and possibly others, I was not saying that ID, WY, and MT residents should welcome newcomers by literally scalping them or burning down their domiciles.

Sad. I always took you for a bright fella with an iron spine. Now I find out that your brilliant solution was hyperbolic and you weren’t actually serious.

Do you think we can train grizzlies to scalp and burn homes? Only after checking out the owner’s political affiliations and proclivities and geographic origins of course. We wouldn’t want to been seen as unreasonable.

 

[CycleFishHunt]

i mean yes and no. you're not wrong, it does jump the green belt due to that. but i still don't see it as that simple.

I don't think Boulder's policies are the reason Erie is blowing up. First and foremost Erie is blowing up because of Erie's policies. Most of Erie doesn't even reside within Boulder County, it's Weld County. Erie has quite the hunger for growth (I'm actually having a house built in Erie as we type).

the root of it all is that people are moving here. sprawling new homes in longmont and erie has nothing to do with boulder. it has everything to do with the demand for homes. i think it's a damn good thing that boulder is preserving that open space in the midst of the development chaos surrounding it.

Boulder is certainly not the sole influence on the surrounding communities. It is, however, an economic center in its own right, and I'm mostly arguing that it has a significant effect on the surrounding communities, so I do not agree with your statement that "sprawling new homes in longmont and erie has nothing to do with boulder".

I know many who live in adjacent towns and commute because they could not afford Boulder, and still drive to work in Boulder. I'd argue largely due to constrained supply caused by NIMBY* zoning rules.

so i mean... what's your point? that it would it be better for Boulder to convert all of their many open spaces to small-lot single family homes instead?

No. I'll spare you and HT my block by block rezoning ideas. But in a nutshell Boulder needs to allow for a modest amount of density (the D-word! ) around downtown and the university. Not skyscrapers, like that massive dorm on 36, but sensible 2-4 story buildings where students, young adults, others can affordably live without having to plow under any open space.

In general, I think a very modest amount of density in small cities and large towns will go a very long way to slowing the sprawl machine. But people lose their minds when you want to build higher than two floors.

* - Footnote: I learned a fun term while living in Boulder. People there are not actually NIMBYs. They're BANANAs: build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything.

 

[4ohSick]

Sometimes, fecal matter just "happens"!
Worked with a guy who ran a trucking company "on the side". It literally "fell" into his lap. A new company needed a haul job, he had a truck. Pretty soon, he had several trucks and a business.
A distant cousin had an idea for a flexible elbow to use in the "oil patch". Several years down the road, the man manufactures the elbows, no longer "works" in the oil patch and is a millionaire.
Met a man who knew someone who knew some one who knew someone.
He was asked if he could build a circuit board for a military weapon system that was unaffected by vibration and shock. He hired 5 women, taught them how to run the small machines and is now the ONLY producer in the US to make that particular, critical, part. They work out of a residential home is Smalltown, America.
I can show you a tiny machine shop in an abandoned building in a (almost!) ghost town that makes parts necessary in the oil patch.

Sometimes, fortune finds us. My "fortune" got lost somewhere! LOL!

Thiel's $5 billion dollar Roth is 3 orders of magnitude higher than your hard-working millionaire friends. That's literally the difference between me working my ass off for $1,000 and you working your ass off for $1 million. So no comparison.

And I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be rich. Even ultra, stupid, crazy rich. I just don't think he should've been able to accumulate more than all of us combined in our lifetimes without paying a penny of taxes on it.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Boulder is certainly not the sole influence on the surrounding communities. It is, however, an economic center in its own right, and I'm mostly arguing that it has a significant effect on the surrounding communities, so I do not agree with your statement that "sprawling new homes in longmont and erie has nothing to do with boulder".

I know many who live in adjacent towns and commute because they could not afford Boulder, and still drive to work in Boulder. I'd argue largely due to constrained supply caused by NIMBY* zoning rules.



No. I'll spare you and HT my block by block rezoning ideas. But in a nutshell Boulder needs to allow for a modest amount of density (the D-word! ) around downtown and the university. Not skyscrapers, like that massive dorm on 36, but sensible 2-4 story buildings where students, young adults, others can affordably live without having to plow under any open space.

In general, I think a very modest amount of density in small cities and large towns will go a very long way to slowing the sprawl machine. But people lose their minds when you want to build higher than two floors.

* - Footnote: I learned a fun term while living in Boulder. People there are not actually NIMBYs. They're BANANAs: build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything.

I think skyscrapers and public lands go hand in hand.

We want ultra dense human dev in confined areas not sprawl.

 

[cedahm]

Yeah the maze of stupid that is HR is the worst development debacle of the last 100 years. You can't walk to anything... it's a dumpster fire of urban planning. 8mm people in NYC, 5.6MM in Singapore each a fraction of the size of the Denver Metro, yet both are a much better place to live.

If you put a glass dome over HR and NYC and said you have to pick one I would choose NYC everyday. The only appeal, as you alluded to, of HR is that you can leave.

That's the whole problem with Denver and CA for that matter. Walkability scores of CO cities = go-f-yourself. Therefore, every weekend the entire city loads up and heads to the mountains. Livable cities would greatly reduce the environmental impact these metros on the rest of the state. Why not drive to summit county to ride your bike if you have to load up your car to ride anyway.

I have spent a lot of time in both. I understand the analogy, but, at least in the case of Sing, there is 0% chance that a community like that happens in the US. And even there, the exodus on weekends to Malaysia and Indonesia can look like I-70 (except there are public transport options). Same in NYC with the Hamptons/Jersey Shore, etc. American cities experiencing rapid growth always either underestimate the growth requirements, or go the Boulder route and outright prohibit growth/"density" which spawns sprawling development in nearby areas.

But it would be pretty cool if Highlands Ranch razed one of the strip malls with 17 versions of TGI McFunsters and built a bunch of Hawker stands.

 

[CycleFishHunt]

I think skyscrapers and public lands go hand in hand.

We want ultra dense human dev in confined areas not sprawl.

A-freakin-men, brother!

I’m a YIMBY. My neighbors bitch and moan about every new building that goes up in Denver. I say to them, “It’s a city, what do you expect?!”

 

[TOGIE]

Boulder is certainly not the sole influence on the surrounding communities. It is, however, an economic center in its own right, and I'm mostly arguing that it has a significant effect on the surrounding communities, so I do not agree with your statement that "sprawling new homes in longmont and erie has nothing to do with boulder".

I know many who live in adjacent towns and commute because they could not afford Boulder, and still drive to work in Boulder. I'd argue largely due to constrained supply caused by NIMBY* zoning rules.

i think my point is that's it's either "here or there"

the houses will be built somewhere no matter what and it doesn't matter what boulder does. they will be built. until the net migration to the state changes that's the reality.

for me, boulder's approach is preferential to many other potential alternatives and it's too bad many other cities don't take a similar - though maybe not as BANANAs - approach

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I have spent a lot of time in both. I understand the analogy, but, at least in the case of Sing, there is 0% chance that a community like that happens in the US. And even there, the exodus on weekends to Malaysia and Indonesia can look like I-70 (except there are public transport options). Same in NYC with the Hamptons/Jersey Shore, etc. American cities experiencing rapid growth always either underestimate the growth requirements, or go the Boulder route and outright prohibit growth/"density" which spawns sprawling development in nearby areas.

But it would be pretty cool if Highlands Ranch razed one of the strip malls with 17 versions of TGI McFunsters and built a bunch of Hawker stands.

There will always be outflow, but I think the ratios for Denver is totally skewed.

For instance I think if you took traffic numbers on for Hamptons/ Jersey Shore combined them then took tunnel west bound numbers, normalized them for population size of the metro, that Denver would have 2x the "exodus factor" that NYC does... same thing with various other Metros.

My biggest gripe living in Denver was that unlike Chicago, NYC, Boston, ect. it has no culture and/or much going on because the culture is beat the crap out of the highway every weekend. Lots of cities have a problem with commuter traffic but I have yet to experience much like I-70 traffic... coming from the Cape to Boston on the 4th is a pretty reasonable experience compared to most weekends in CO.

 

[noharleyyet]

There will always be outflow, but I think the ratios for Denver is totally skewed.

For instance I think if you took traffic numbers on for Hamptons/ Jersey Shore combined them then took tunnel west bound numbers, normalized them for population size of the metro, that Denver would have 2x the "exodus factor" that NYC does... same thing with various other Metros.

My biggest gripe living in Denver was that unlike Chicago, NYC, Boston, ect. it has no culture and/or much going on because the culture is beat the crap out of the highway every weekend. Lots of cities have a problem with commuter traffic but I have yet to experience much like I-70 traffic... coming from the Cape to Boston on the 4th is a pretty reasonable experience compared to most weekends in CO.

I-70 is a religious experience on a motorcycle...

 

[BigHornRam]

You guys have done an excellent job convincing me to never set foot in Colorado again.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

You guys have done an excellent job convincing me to never set foot in Colorado again.

Can I interest you in a drawing for a tag that you cannot draw?

 

[Otto Matic]

Thiel's $5 billion dollar Roth is 3 orders of magnitude higher than your hard-working millionaire friends. That's literally the difference between me working my ass off for $1,000 and you working your ass off for $1 million. So no comparison.

And I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be rich. Even ultra, stupid, crazy rich. I just don't think he should've been able to accumulate more than all of us combined in our lifetimes without paying a penny of taxes on it.

My point was that some people don't set out to start a business, it just "happens".
Not that that is what happened to this Theil.
Sometimes, s#¡t just happens.

I've had my shots and chances. I either didn't recognize them or stupidly turned them down. It's called falling in a tub of s#¡t and coming out smelling like a rose! LOL!
I just smelled like poop!