The ethics of proper bullet choice

[2rocky]

On the gapest of !

Is that got sumphin' to do with GAPER DAY?

 

[woods89]

Like Snowy mentioned, we've used 139 Scenars on game enough to be pretty confident in the results, and the results are good.

However, I'll be loading some ELD-M 147's in my 6.5 PRC for use in the future, unless I stumble upon a decent stash of 156 Bergers. The focus of that rifle tips me towards their superior BC's, and I expect either will perform like I'd want on game. I've been wrong before, but I do have one bull and two bucks under the belt with 147's, no complaints.

I've only killed 2 animals with them, both close, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. But I have been very impressed with the terminal performance of the 156s. With a prc that would absolutely be what I'd be looking for.
There kind of right on the line of velocity vs bc with a Creedmoor, though. I can get 2650 but I'm only 3/10 of a grain under pressure signs. And yes, availability is an issue..

 

[Carl]

I've only killed 2 animals with them, both close, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. But I have been very impressed with the terminal performance of the 156s. With a prc that would absolutely be what I'd be looking for.
There kind of right on the line of velocity vs bc with a Creedmoor, though. I can get 2650 but I'm only 3/10 of a grain under pressure signs. And yes, availability is an issue..

Thanks for the input. My PRC load with 147's gets me 3030 fps, though I need to switch powders and that could cost me a few fps, nothing I'm going to sweat. I expect to be 2950 +/- with the 156's. I've got just under 100 of them, and MIGHT talk myself into trying them for bear in the spring, but would rather have a few hundred more.

 

[Carl]

This thread got me thinking and going back through my log, wondering what patterns show up. I've been hunting the west since 2006, and have kept notes on all my big game kills.




2006-2009: the Barnes era

Those first few years, I shot Barnes TSX's exclusively. I had a lot of iffy kills, almost 50%. I don't think any of them were directly attributable to the Barnes, they were all placement issues. Some placement was do to just getting excited and rushing situations too much, some were surely due to the Leupold 3-9's I was using losing zero literally every single season.



2010-2016: the match bullet era

In 2010 I switch to hunting with slippery "match" bullets and never looked back. I had six kills (~ 25% of total) in these years where things didn't go according to plan, for the following reasons:

- Bad range
- Bullet issue (major, Blem 162 Amax)
- Bad wind call
- Bullet issue (minor, 140 Berger Target Hybrid)
- Bad range
- Rushing a shot

The first bullet issue led to my biggest rodeo ever, with blem 162 Amax's totally failing on a bull, still don't know exactly why and I didn't do much investigation at the time due to the circumstances. Used that bullet on 5 other animals including another bull with no issue.

The second was a Berger 140 Hybrid that didn't behave correctly, probably due to an impact velocity below its consistent range. That one was no big deal after I shot him again, but I wouldn't choose that bullet in a situation where it would impact below 2000 fps today. I shot a few other animals, all impacting faster, with no issue. If memory serves I think Snowy used it on a buck as well.



2017-2021: the competition era

I slowly started competing more (PRS/NRL style) and hunting less but still some. I have no iffy kills during these years, but did miss an antelope clean due to a botched wind call. Definitely the most confidence and consistency I've had on game. My hunting guns morphed over time until they're essentially light versions of my comp guns.




My takeaways:

- Have a weapon system you trust to stay zero'd and work correctly, then be paranoid about losing zero. I haven't been testing this enough recently but need to get back to it. I remain paranoid about it.

- Trigger time; competition shooting has eclipsed hunting as a hobby for me the last few years, and I can definitely see the improvement in my shooting while hunting. You don't have to shoot 5,000 rounds a year to improve, but it doesn't hurt.

- Know what to expect from your bullet, and use it accordingly. Min and max appropriate impact velocity (and what do those correlate to in ranges), do you need to be wary of bone, how much is wind going to effect it.

- Ranging; rangefinders vary in effectiveness and consistency, and they require skill to get good results in certain situations. An upgraded rangefinder is in my future, possibly one of the new Sig's as I still can't justify the Vectronix options.

 

[woods89]

Thanks for the input. My PRC load with 147's gets me 3030 fps, though I need to switch powders and that could cost me a few fps, nothing I'm going to sweat. I expect to be 2950 +/- with the 156's. I've got just under 100 of them, and MIGHT talk myself into trying them for bear in the spring, but would rather have a few hundred more.

I've never shot 147s so maybe they're just as good. I've sure heard lots of good about them.

We've got some stellar bullet choices these days.

 

[300stw]

i grew up hunting in california, lots and lots of pigs, and lots of depredation deer tags in the melon fields, and i mean alot of animals,
shooting 150 corelokts thru a 280 ackley, probably never more then a 300 yard kill, no rangefinders, dont remember an uncovered deer , maybe couple pigs, didnt know there was anything wrong with it until i went east and hunted big mountains,,,,,,then i needed a big gun, 8mm mag with 220 sierra, when i was 16, that thing killed at both ends,

 

[Farmerj]

I stopped hunting with a jacketed soft point and try to find bonded or partitions. My last 2 deer I shot with plain jacketed and the separation really bothered me. Especially on the last one. Square on the brisket and the round followed the skin around the rib cage and stopped at the spine at the back strap.

150gr .308 federal blue box.

The deer dropped in its tracks and when I went to clean it, there was no penetration at all into the chest cavity. I killed it field dressing it.

When I hung it in the garage is when we found the bullet track…

Cheap hunting ammo is NOT worth it.

 

[Irrelevant]

This is the only bullet recovery I've ever saved. It's a 150 gr corelok from a .30-30, used on my first deer at age 14 at under 200 yards. Looks like it should.

Except it didn't do what it should. It hit the front shoulder, mushroomed and stopped without even cracking the shoulder blade, let alone any real penetration. The result was nothing but a flesh wound.

However, it did cause the buck to stumble, and the slope was so steep he couldn't recover, tumbled out of control and broke his back on a tree.

 

[Dougfirtree]

View attachment 207024
This is the only bullet recovery I've ever saved. It's a 150 gr corelok from a .30-30, used on my first deer at age 14 at under 200 yards. Looks like it should.

Except it didn't do what it should. It hit the front shoulder, mushroomed and stopped without even cracking the shoulder blade, let alone any real penetration. The result was nothing but a flesh wound.

However, it did cause the buck to stumble, and the slope was so steep he couldn't recover, tumbled out of control and broke his back on a tree.

That's an excellent story. You basically killed a deer by tripping him.

 

[Irrelevant]

That's an excellent story. You basically killed a deer by tripping him.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

 

[Dougfirtree]

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

To be fair, you were both lucky and good. The bullet was the weak link...

 

[Irrelevant]

To be fair, you were both lucky and good. The bullet was the weak link...

If you'd have seen my sight picture in the moments before yanking the trigger like I was setting the hook on a 9 foot sturgeon, you'd take back the good part.

I'd shot that gun all of three times in my life, all the weekend before the opener at a paper plate at about 50 yards. It had a Weaver 6x scope with extra fine crosshairs. I remember the cross was only on a part of that buck occasionally as my wobble varied many deer lengths in all directions. My 14 yr old lanky frame couldn't hardly hold that gun, let alone free hand up at a 45 deg angle, at a range I probably couldn't consistently hit from a bench if I had all day to try. It was THE definition of what not to do and the ultimate hail (fail) Mary that ended up working. But I can assure you, I left any good I had at home that day.

 

[Addicting]

That's an excellent story. You basically killed a deer by tripping him.

Made me chuckle. Friend told me a story where he shot a elk in the front hoof. Bullet deflected off something in its flight path. Caused the elk to trip coming down a steep grade. The fall killed it, guys at camp still kid him about hoof shooting when the Jamison comes out.

 

[Festus]

View attachment 207024
This is the only bullet recovery I've ever saved. It's a 150 gr corelok from a .30-30, used on my first deer at age 14 at under 200 yards. Looks like it should.

Except it didn't do what it should. It hit the front shoulder, mushroomed and stopped without even cracking the shoulder blade, let alone any real penetration. The result was nothing but a flesh wound.

However, it did cause the buck to stumble, and the slope was so steep he couldn't recover, tumbled out of control and broke his back on a tree.

"off the shoulder blade, down the hill, over the rock, into the spruce - nothin' but net"

 

[The Hedgehog]

I don’t know how many elk, deer, bears, and antelope myself, @Carl and those borrowing our guns have killed with 139 scenars but it’s a lot. + a mountain goat. 35-40? Probably more. There are slipperier .264 projectiles out there but I’ve not seen another one that balances penetration and destruction so sweetly.
Word has it they even work on home raised beef.

Glad to know 2 more people I trust and value their experiences before a big switch up..

@Carl still in town? Would love to catch up and learn about your shooting. Pat and Jake told me about you appearance and total domination at that Glasgow shoot a few years ago..

 

[Carl]

Still in town, would be happy to catch up and talk shooting.

I remember that evening at the Icebreaker, it did go well for me. I thought Jake got hosed, if I recall he shot last and it was nearly dark by the time he was up. Seeing the targets is one thing, but seeing your impacts and adjusting off them makes ALL the difference when you're shooting in that style.

 

[WildWill]

Big fan of Partitions but have been using accubonds lately very happy with both. Only shot one animal with a "match grade" bullet a Sierra 95gr 243. on a deer wasn't satisfied.
180gr 30-06 accubond

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Those first few years, I shot Barnes TSX's exclusively. I had a lot of iffy kills, almost 50%. I don't think any of them were directly attributable to the Barnes, they were all placement issues. Some placement was do to just getting excited and rushing situations too much, some were surely due to the Leupold 3-9's I was using losing zero literally every single season.

My takeaways:

- Have a weapon system you trust to stay zero'd and work correctly, then be paranoid about losing zero. I haven't been testing this enough recently but need to get back to it. I remain paranoid about it.

Carl,

I think a lot of folks are missing the boat on zero retention.

What do you trust to stay zeroed and what kind of activities make you feel it should be checked again before taking shots on game beyond short range gimmes?

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I've yet to see a bullet "fail" but my sample size isn't that big.

I'm not a huge ELDx fan but will still use them in some cases. 200 ELDx out of a 300wsm has shown acceptable performance for me. 175 7mm ELDx out of a 22" 7 SAUM has been too explosive for my tastes and I likely wont be using it anymore. I shot a juvenile wolf in the chest quartering to at about 40 yards and it didn't exit leaving a total wound depth of about 12". Both bullets were shot at similar velocities but the SAUM is an 8 twist vs the 300 as a 10 twist. I think bullet RPM has an impact on how fast bullets come apart. I wouldn't say confidently that is the main driver between these two but its a possible factor. A friend i trust said he watched a cow elk soak up 3 143 eldx in the lungs from a creedmoor and still walk quite a ways and he'd never recommend that combo for elk after that.

 

[The Hedgehog]

@Carl since we’re practically neighbors - I’ll be over to visit. But I think it might be a worthwhile thread for you to start on what equipment you’re using and why. What really works what doesn’t..Etc. not necessarily hunting focus, but shooting.

Someday when you’re bored..