The ambiguity of theft and failure of enforcement

neffa3 said:
That is messed up. Have you reminded the Sheriff he holds an elected position?
Click to expand...
So Theat's post made me a bit curious as to what the Sheriff HAS to do vs what they CAN do, and what recourse there is for citizens who disagree with Sheriff's actions/inactions.

Per the WA RCW their duties are:
The sheriff is the chief executive officer and conservator of the peace of the county. In the execution of his or her office, he or she and his or her deputies:
(1) Shall arrest and commit to prison all persons who break the peace, or attempt to break it, and all persons guilty of public offenses;
(2) Shall defend the county against those who, by riot or otherwise, endanger the public peace or safety;
(3) Shall execute the process and orders of the courts of justice or judicial officers, when delivered for that purpose, according to law;
(4) Shall execute all warrants delivered for that purpose by other public officers, according to the provisions of particular statutes;
(5) Shall attend the sessions of the courts of record held within the county, and obey their lawful orders or directions;
(6) Shall keep and preserve the peace in their respective counties, and quiet and suppress all affrays, riots, unlawful assemblies and insurrections, for which purpose, and for the service of process in civil or criminal cases, and in apprehending or securing any person for felony or breach of the peace, they may call to their aid such persons, or power of their county as they may deem necessary.

Investigate is not mentioned.

The recourse for faults by the Sheriff is:
Whenever any sheriff neglects to make due return of any writ or other process delivered to him or her to be executed, or is guilty of any default or misconduct in relation thereto, he or she shall be liable to fine or attachment, or both, at the discretion of the court, subject to appeal, such fine, however, not to exceed two hundred dollars; and also to an action for damages to the party aggrieved.

I'm pretty surprised how little governs their actions. I mean the water code is probably 15-20x times more elaborate.

Also @DouglasR
www.theminimalists.com

FILMS BY THE MINIMALISTS - The Minimalists

Documentaries, web series, and other films by The Minimalists...
www.theminimalists.com www.theminimalists.com

less is more. Plenty of Gnar was poached with gear you could acquire for less than a truck payment. Marketing is the only reason you think you need more/better/nicer
 
VikingsGuy said:
The statute requires the shooter to prove that shooter holds a reasonably belief (the reasonably prudent person standard):

"(A)
the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B)
the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury."

So, if somebody is willing to drop $250,000+ defending the murder trial; hopes they get a favorable cop, a favorable DA, a favorable judge and a favorable jury; and they really believe in killing other humans over stuff in their garage; and they are prepared to explain their actions to the god of their choosing - I guess it is a thing in Texas. SMH
Click to expand...
SOOOOO....I guess I do know what I'm talking about a little.... :) I'm no expert, I'm just saying these criminals have way too many rights and for them to get theirs head bashed, hands or legs broken or even shot....I have no issues with it. The police per this thread seem to busy to care, so you need to take care of yourself thee days.
 
LuketheDog said:
There's nothing in my garage (or yours, or anybody else's) worth killing anybody over...my wife and daughters sleep inside.
Click to expand...
we can agree to disagree on this....if you like people coming back time after time to steal stuff, like in that video, I'm sure you would want something done....even if it's just cut off a hand like in the old days. :)
 
oldbutnotdead said:
SOOOOO....I guess I do know what I'm talking about a little.... :) I'm no expert, I'm just saying these criminals have way too many rights and for them to get theirs head bashed, hands or legs broken or even shot....I have no issues with it. The police per this thread seem to busy to care, so you need to take care of yourself thee days.
Click to expand...
The guy in the link I posted was "taking care of things himself", now he makes license plates









forever.
 
TOGIE said:
.but man, the endless "what ifs" in these conversations are pointless...
Click to expand...
and even in real life

i.e. Stand your ground in Texas ; Amount of force used when defending yourself must be "reasonable" and comparable to the one who is attacking you (type of weapon, if any, gender, if different than yours, age, )
i.e. Castle Doctrine in Texas; Home or Car---if someone is walking or running, away from you, your home or car, you are not in danger and using a gun to shoot someone could land you in trouble
i.e. Deadly force used in self defense against a rapist who does not explicitly or implicitly threaten physical harm, beyond forcible intercourse is not settled law.
 
DouglasR said:
Of what insurance do you speak?
Does homeowners cover this?
Click to expand...
Typical homeowners ins. covers personal items on the property and off (such as in a hotel room or in a vehicle out on the town). Of course, some items like collectibles, guns, cash and jewelry can be limited (but who the hell stores jewelry & cash in the garage).
 
Randi said:
i.e. Deadly force used in self defense against a rapist who does not explicitly or implicitly threaten physical harm, beyond forcible intercourse is not settled law.
Click to expand...

that's interesting. it's been a while since i took a concealed class, but i seem to recall that in colorado shooting someone would be justified if you could prove they were attempting to sexually assault someone. you can shoot someone in the act of kidnapping a child. perusing the web pages of colorado law offices seems to confirm this. though we all know how these things shake down in court is far more complicated.

but again, i'm under the impression that if, in colorado, you came across a man working to pull the pants off a girl who is screaming for help an alley you'd be fully justified in blowing a few holes in him.

oh man, the "what if's" though lol
 
blueridge said:
I've had two occurrences during the past month that have been very disappointing and frustrating to me.

1. I was working from home and through the trees saw a car in the driveway of my parent's house. It's a second home for them and they are rarely there, so I walk over to check it out. I see a guy backing his car up to the garage, walk around to the side, and come back carrying one of their big tool boxes. I yell and start running towards him. He throws down the toolbox, jumps in his car, and speeds away. I can't cut him off, but I take mental note of a description of him and his car. Takes me a minute to get back to my house, unhook the boat from my truck, get my phone, then head out after him. I saw the way he went and know I'd never catch up to him, but know if he hit the main road and turned left I can catch him by taking a short cut. Turns out I guessed right and see him pass through the intersection in front of me. I follow at a distance and call my son who lives in the town he's heading towards to have him sit at the first stoplight to help keep track while I call and coordinate with the cops. I give them the description of the guy, make and model of his car, then get close enough to give them the license plate number. He turns onto a parallel street (no where to go) and I keep going so he doesn't know I am following him. He pulls back in behind me then I see my son's car at the gas station up ahead. We all get to the stop light in line with me in front, the thief in the middle, and my son right behind him. One part of me is thinking, "You have him trapped. Go back there, pull him out of his car, and beat his ass." The other part says, "He may have a weapon. Let the police do their job. You're on the phone with them and they are waiting up ahead." Light turns green and I drive on. He passes me when it turns into a two-lane and then he starts taking back streets. I keep relaying the location to the police, knowing that he has to be getting suspicious of me now. He gets to a stop sign at a 4-way and I see a police car pulling up to the intersection on the left. I think, "Thank goodness! They're here! They're gonna catch him!" The guy makes a left right in front of the cop and I roll down my window and point that he's who they're looking for. What does the cop do? Never turns lights on. Does the slowest 3-point turn in history of the world. Heads back up the street after the car at a normal pace. Gets to the next stop sign and lets several cars pass. Then turns and the guy is gone. Imagine that. WTF!? I stop and make a report. See a picture of who the car is registered to and it's not who I saw. The cop also got a good look when he drove past. Anyway, a few weeks pass and I never hear back, even after several voicemails left with the officer in charge of the case.

Got me thinking a few things, chief among them: When was the exact point in this scenario when it became or would have become theft and the perpetrator could be charged? As soon as he picked up the toolbox? If and only if he had put it in his car or taken it off my parent's property? Does it have to be in his possession when apprehended? Since he threw it down, could he only be charged with trespassing? Since he got away, is it not prosecutable because it would be he said vs he said? I asked a lawyer friend of mine. He said it wasn't clear. :wow. Anyway, frustrating.

@VikingsGuy , @Ben Lamb , do either of you practice criminal law? Insights on the difficulties or often overlooked encumbrances to prosecution?

2. Today I was leaving a jobsite in town when a guy walks real slow and close by my truck before realizing I was in it. He walks across the street and I see him walk past another car real slow, then turn around and come back by it. I take a picture of him and as I drive by I see him open the door and squat beside the drivers door. Looks fishy, so I block it. He has now crossed the street and is in another driveway trying to open another car door but it's locked. I pull back into the house I am working at and call the cops. Tell them I've seen a guy trying to get into cars, clear description of the guy and what he's wearing, tell them right where he's at, and give them my phone number. I tell the work crew next door to watch their tools they have out front, feel like I have done my job, and start driving home. I pass a cop and wave, knowing he's on the scene. Then right behind him I see the guy walking down the sidewalk. 30 seconds later I get a call from the police officer,
"This is Office XYZ, can I help you?"
"Yeah, there's a guy who I watched trying to get into different cars."
"Did you see him take anything?"
"No, but I saw him open the door of one car and try to open another at a different address."
"Did he ever leave your view?"
"Yes, as I was driving around the block."
"Well, I talked to the guy you gave the description of. Is there anything else I can do for you?"
"Are you serious?"
Click.
Must have hung up by accident and will call right back. Nope. And this conversation he says had with this guy could only have taken place during the time that I was talking with the crew next door (bc I saw him walk by through the alley and pointed him out) and when I pulled back out and passed the cop at the light, no more than 1 minute. Did even get out of his car? How much did he look into it?

Anyway, frustrating for several reasons. One is the difficulty in holding criminals accountable. The other is the difficulty on holding those accountable whose job it is to hold those criminals accountable. Almost makes you want to take things into your own hands. (My lawyer friend said that was a very bad idea.)

One thing's for sure: I will now have to keep a much closer watch on my tool trailer and work truck while I am there.
Click to expand...
It might be worth looking into your state laws and the possibility of a citizen's arrest. It allows you to bring the perpetrator directly before a judge.
 
Randi said:
i.e. Deadly force used in self defense against a rapist who does not explicitly or implicitly threaten physical harm, beyond forcible intercourse is not settled law.
Click to expand...
Ain't you kinda' a cowgirl anyway? Wal, jest saddle up and mosey on north a piece. I think we consider rape serious bodily harm in these parts, so fill the rascal full of holes. The bigger the better.

45-3-102. Use of force in defense of person, MCA

leg.mt.gov leg.mt.gov
 
Last edited by a moderator:
oldbutnotdead said:
we can agree to disagree on this....if you like people coming back time after time to steal stuff, like in that video, I'm sure you would want something done....even if it's just cut off a hand like in the old days. :)
Click to expand...

Yes, we'll definitely disagree. I'd either lock up my stuff better and get better insurance, or just move. Possibly going to jail or facing financial ruin over a pile of old crap covered by insurance is just stupid. There's many reasons I live outside of town, dealing with the exploding crime rate in this state is one of them.
 
neffa3 said:
So Theat's post made me a bit curious as to what the Sheriff HAS to do vs what they CAN do, and what recourse there is for citizens who disagree with Sheriff's actions/inactions.

Per the WA RCW their duties are:
The sheriff is the chief executive officer and conservator of the peace of the county. In the execution of his or her office, he or she and his or her deputies:
(1) Shall arrest and commit to prison all persons who break the peace, or attempt to break it, and all persons guilty of public offenses;
(2) Shall defend the county against those who, by riot or otherwise, endanger the public peace or safety;
(3) Shall execute the process and orders of the courts of justice or judicial officers, when delivered for that purpose, according to law;
(4) Shall execute all warrants delivered for that purpose by other public officers, according to the provisions of particular statutes;
(5) Shall attend the sessions of the courts of record held within the county, and obey their lawful orders or directions;
(6) Shall keep and preserve the peace in their respective counties, and quiet and suppress all affrays, riots, unlawful assemblies and insurrections, for which purpose, and for the service of process in civil or criminal cases, and in apprehending or securing any person for felony or breach of the peace, they may call to their aid such persons, or power of their county as they may deem necessary.

Investigate is not mentioned.

The recourse for faults by the Sheriff is:
Whenever any sheriff neglects to make due return of any writ or other process delivered to him or her to be executed, or is guilty of any default or misconduct in relation thereto, he or she shall be liable to fine or attachment, or both, at the discretion of the court, subject to appeal, such fine, however, not to exceed two hundred dollars; and also to an action for damages to the party aggrieved.

I'm pretty surprised how little governs their actions. I mean the water code is probably 15-20x times more elaborate.

Also @DouglasR
www.theminimalists.com

FILMS BY THE MINIMALISTS - The Minimalists

Documentaries, web series, and other films by The Minimalists...
www.theminimalists.com www.theminimalists.com

less is more. Plenty of Gnar was poached with gear you could acquire for less than a truck payment. Marketing is the only reason you think you need more/better/nicer
Click to expand...
yes, but nobody ever won the kmbc 10hr endurance race on a 35lbs 134.

Blurs only 23lbs Neff!
 
TOGIE said:
that's interesting. it's been a while since i took a concealed class, but i seem to recall that in colorado shooting someone would be justified if you could prove they were attempting to sexually assault someone. you can shoot someone in the act of kidnapping a child. perusing the web pages of colorado law offices seems to confirm this. though we all know how these things shake down in court is far more complicated.

but again, i'm under the impression that if, in colorado, you came across a man working to pull the pants off a girl who is screaming for help an alley you'd be fully justified in blowing a few holes in him.

oh man, the "what if's" though lol
Click to expand...
longbow51 said:
Ain't you kinda' a cowgirl anyway? Wal, jest saddle up and mosey on north a piece. I think we consider rape serious bodily harm in these parts, so fill the rascal full of holes. The bigger the better.

45-3-102. Use of force in defense of person, MCA

leg.mt.gov leg.mt.gov
Click to expand...
You gentlemen get no argument from me, but I was specifically speaking about the "what ifs"

--especially when it reaches the courtroom. ------- The man certainly didn't desire to die for just coping a feel, or pulling down your dress, or rubbing against you, or not letting you out of a corner until he "sees", "feels",-------- pleeeze, it isn't like your a virgin, you shouldn't have dressed in a short dress if you didn't want attention, its not like I broke any bones or anything, trust me you will enjoy it, quit fighting and enjoy it, if you tell the police people in your family will get hurt etc etc etc----

when is it o.k., in the eyes of the law, the D.A., the judge, to kill the S.O.B. Before the assault, during, after. The D.A. when charging you for shooting him, "My God, he was drunk and never ever committed a crime before in his life, he didn't deserve to die for one mistake, especially one with no visible harm was done"

Men on average are stronger and if you let it go to far, you will be unable to get your pepper spray or handgun between you and him. If you try to reason with him/them, then you hear you should of done something sooner

The "what ifs" exist, at every stage -----especially in a courtroom

However, having said all that, a gentleman on this forum and I recently discussed this and most men are gentlemen and most will even come to the rescue if you ask for help, some will even ask if you need help, going out for an evening with a couple of other girls works, as the old adage of there being salty in numbers is true. I have found most cowboys in Texas to be very nice and even protective---but that wasn't the original topic/question/discussion
 
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