Target practice on Wild Horses

[BrentD]

Against my better judgement I will ask, "What do you think would be accomplished by killing off every last wild horse in 'The West'? What is your goal?" Put your critical thinking hat on and lay it out.

 

[CowboyLeroy]

 

[rtraverdavis]

Against my better judgement I will ask, "What do you think would be accomplished by killing off every last wild horse in 'The West'? What is your goal?" Put your critical thinking hat on and lay it out.

I’m no expert, but I’d surmise the benefits would be less habitat destruction and competition for native species.

 

[RealMuddyboots]

Have you voted for people that have supported the agency or the people that have cut, slashed and done everything they can to inhibit the agency? Just exactly what do you expect them to do - given federal law. The policy comes before the management and policy, here, comes from congress.

So why publish a plan that is not achievable? If it is not achievable, then it is another example of blowing smoke. BLM either has a budget to achieve the plan or they don't. You don't publish a plan without a budget or resources. I linked to "their plan" that must be correlated to budget and resources. This is very simple business management 101. I expect the same from any agency or government local, state or federal. I vote for those who will "do the job". That's all I ask. If BLM wants to publish a plan, I expect it to be fully funded and resourced. If it is not, then its not a plan that can be enacted.

 

[windymtnman]

But at least cows do serve a purpose. These wild horses do not. I own horses as well

I get it that your thinking cows serve a purpose, presumably because they are eaten.
If that's the logic, then what purpose does any other animal have in the wild then? Must they
be on the menu in order to fulfill a purpose of being food? If that was true, then why wouldn't we
eradicate any species of animal that isn't consumed by humans?

 

[brockel]

I get it that your thinking cows serve a purpose, presumably because they are eaten.
If that's the logic, then what purpose does any other animal have in the wild then? Must they
be on the menu in order to fulfill a purpose of being food? If that was true, then why wouldn't we
eradicate any species of animal that isn't consumed by humans?

Most of them are not an invasive species

 

[windymtnman]

And cows are regulated. The vast majority of cow owners are not like the Ahole Bundy's and do their best to adhere to the requirement of the grazing permits. Sometimes we fail, but the long term trend in range health suggests we succeed more than we fail.
Being on the RAC has changed my mind about wild horses. I used to be a shoot them all kind of guy, but if wild horses can get a little old lady in Connecticut excited about public land there is some good in wild horses. It is time that the horse people step up and take some of the responsibility for the horses and in some places like the Prior Mountains they have. This is why I suggest that the horse people be issued grazing permits. Easy to be a horse advocate when you don't have to shell out the dollars to do grazing right.

As for cows on Federal grazing leases, the oversight and management of those leases by the USFS and BLM may vary from district to district? I know where I live, a BLM Range Manager told me they don't have the resources to police a great many of the leases. She also told me that the fines for grazing leases is so low, some ranchers may opt to pay the fines for keeping too many cattle on a lease, or staying on the range past their end date, because the cost of feed far exceeds the fines. Don't forget that in Western history, a lot of the cattle barons controlled the politics of things, and their lobby is still strong today.
As for adopting out Mustangs and Burros, many people do want them. (I've adopted a couple). However in part with the hard times people are facing, with the economy and other factors, people simply can't afford to adopt the animals. Yes, there are more wild horses than the private owner demand is. The Canon City Prison holding facility typically has 2500 Mustangs there in holding and inmate training programs, and a few months ago, a virus, or similar, wiped out many hundreds of those horses.
BLM, of course is a big target for criticisms. I am sometimes critical myself, yet they have Federal law to abide by most of the time. While illegal to kill a Mustang or Burro, a few years ago, the BLM in Colorado was exposed for allowing a man to take hundreds of horses out of holding and shipping them to Mexico for slaughter.

 

[windymtnman]

Most of them are not an invasive species

When does an animal not become an invasive species? The original Mustangs are believed to have either escaped or let loose by Spanish explorers back in the 1600's. The Burros heavily contributed to the mining history of the Western States. Calling them an invasive species can put a big stain on them, but is it a valid remark? Are putting Angus Cows on the range also in the same category as being an invasive species?
When I read all the remarks that want to do away with Mustangs, I think about this scenario. Mustangs have an indisputable reputation for being great trail horses. They are saavy, smart, sound, have hearty feet, and all around reliable mounts. They are also a great value as a wild one costs $125 to adopt, so an Outfitter can train them in their off seasons.
So, I'm wondering if any of the hunters here that want to condemn the wild Mustangs out there, find themselves eventually booking a guided backcountry hunt. They show up at the trailhead, and are assigned a horse to ride into camp on. If they're especially educated, they notice the freezebrand on their mounts neck, indicating it is indeed a formerly wild Mustang. At this point, are they going to climb into the saddle, or take up their opinions on Mustangs with the Outfitter? Is it a hypocritical to bash a Mustang on here, and then someday ride one into camp, or have it pack out your kill?

 

[brockel]

When does an animal not become an invasive species? The original Mustangs are believed to have either escaped or let loose by Spanish explorers back in the 1600's. The Burros heavily contributed to the mining history of the Western States. Calling them an invasive species can put a big stain on them, but is it a valid remark? Are putting Angus Cows on the range also in the same category as being an invasive species?
When I read all the remarks that want to do away with Mustangs, I think about this scenario. Mustangs have an indisputable reputation for being great trail horses. They are saavy, smart, sound, have hearty feet, and all around reliable mounts. They are also a great value as a wild one costs $125 to adopt, so an Outfitter can train them in their off seasons.
So, I'm wondering if any of the hunters here that want to condemn the wild Mustangs out there, find themselves eventually booking a guided backcountry hunt. They show up at the trailhead, and are assigned a horse to ride into camp on. If they're especially educated, they notice the freezebrand on their mounts neck, indicating it is indeed a formerly wild Mustang. At this point, are they going to climb into the saddle, or take up their opinions on Mustangs with the Outfitter? Is it a hypocritical to bash a Mustang on here, and then someday ride one into camp, or have it pack out your kill?

It is no longer a burden on the land and tax payers once it is adopted

 

[antlerradar]

As for cows on Federal grazing leases, the oversight and management of those leases by the USFS and BLM may vary from district to district? I know where I live, a BLM Range Manager told me they don't have the resources to police a great many of the leases. She also told me that the fines for grazing leases is so low, some ranchers may opt to pay the fines for keeping too many cattle on a lease, or staying on the range past their end date, because the cost of feed far exceeds the fines. Don't forget that in Western history, a lot of the cattle barons controlled the politics of things, and their lobby is still strong today.
As for adopting out Mustangs and Burros, many people do want them. (I've adopted a couple). However in part with the hard times people are facing, with the economy and other factors, people simply can't afford to adopt the animals. Yes, there are more wild horses than the private owner demand is. The Canon City Prison holding facility typically has 2500 Mustangs there in holding and inmate training programs, and a few months ago, a virus, or similar, wiped out many hundreds of those horses.
BLM, of course is a big target for criticisms. I am sometimes critical myself, yet they have Federal law to abide by most of the time. While illegal to kill a Mustang or Burro, a few years ago, the BLM in Colorado was exposed for allowing a man to take hundreds of horses out of holding and shipping them to Mexico for slaughter.

Sounds like you are ready to sign up for a grazing permit.

 

[Irrelevant]

When does an animal not become an invasive species? The original Mustangs are believed to have either escaped or let loose by Spanish explorers back in the 1600's. The Burros heavily contributed to the mining history of the Western States. Calling them an invasive species can put a big stain on them, but is it a valid remark?

10,000 years.
Yes.

 

[noharleyyet]

Picasso's prescience...

 

[BrentD]

10,000 years.
Yes.

A pretty good argument could be made that horses are just reclaiming their rightful territory after being hunted to extinction or run off the continent by invasive hominids.

 

[Irrelevant]

A pretty good argument could be made that horses are just reclaiming their rightful territory after being hunted to extinction or run off the continent by invasive hominids.

There a great docu on that you should check out. It's a little dated, but very well done. Won several awards when it first came out if I'm not mistaken.

Jurassic Park - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Irrelevant]

A pretty good argument could be made that horses are just reclaiming their rightful territory after being hunted to extinction or run off the continent by invasive hominids.

A good argument is based on facts. And the fact is, you can see, with your own eyes, or with others data and analytics if you prefer that, that they are actively destroying habitat to great harm of many native species and ecosystems. I'm not sure how someone makes any intelligible argument that feral horses are anything but a plague to be managed as worse and eliminated at best.

 

[BrentD]

A good argument is based on facts. And the fact is, you can see, with your own eyes, or with others data and analytics if you prefer that, that they are actively destroying habitat to great harm of many native species and ecosystems. I'm not sure how someone makes any intelligible argument that feral horses are anything but a plague to be managed as worse and eliminated at best.

I asked what you want to get from their elimination. Do you really think anything would change? Most of the active habitat destruction and harm to native species and ecosystems that I see comes from 1. Hominids and 2. Cattle. Both nonnative, hyper invasive species I might add.

I will argue that it will not change one iota if horses were eliminated. Not one bit. You would probably see more cows, however...

 

[Irrelevant]

I asked what you want to get from their elimination. Do you really think anything would change? Most of the active habitat destruction and harm to native species and ecosystems that I see comes from 1. Hominids and 2. Cattle. Both nonnative, hyper invasive species I might add.

I will argue that it will not change one iota if horses were eliminated. Not one bit. You would probably see more cows, however...

sure and if I could get rid of either of them (excluding a few select #1s) I would. But I've seen first hand feral horse destruction on the Yakama Rez. They don't run cows and I've never seen a person out there. But there used to be deer. Not anymore. It's so barren of vegetation they routinely have large die-offs of horses. Hell it would be hard to get a grass fire going there's no little vegetation.

Horse Rich & Dirt Poor - The Wildlife Society

Support a healthy ecological balance on your public lands! Explore the effects of America’s overpopulated wild horses and burros on wildlife, public lands, and ecosystems as you travel through...

wildlife.org

 

[BrentD]

sure and if I could get rid of either of them (excluding a few select #1s) I would. But I've seen first hand feral horse destruction on the Yakama Rez. They don't run cows and I've never seen a person out there. But there used to be deer. Not anymore. It's so barren of vegetation they routinely have large die-offs of horses. Hell it would be hard to get a grass fire going there's no little vegetation.

Horse Rich & Dirt Poor - The Wildlife Society

Support a healthy ecological balance on your public lands! Explore the effects of America’s overpopulated wild horses and burros on wildlife, public lands, and ecosystems as you travel through...

wildlife.org

The "Rez" is probably the reason, not the horses.

Drive Wyoming 20 from Riverton to Glenrock. Basically, Horses South, No Horses North. Both sides of the road look pretty much identical to me.

You think that you can remove horses and everything will become paradise. Deer, antelope, elk everywhere. In truth. Just a few more cows. Nothing else will change.

If you want to get rid of some cattle, I'm all in.

Contemplate this

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/land_mammals.png

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

These are feral animals on the landscape like the cats in Australia or feral hogs across most of the rest of the country. Just because someone turned them loose then left them unattended to reproduce doesn't mean they belong on the landscape.

Most of these advocates for the pretty animals really contribute nothing to their plight. Maybe they can get out there and do some habitat restoration or clean up the water holes they've destroyed? They don't belong on the landscape.

And who really cares if someone's offended by the title of the post? FB is a great place for you to go cancel someone else with a different opinion than yours. I doubt the OP did a survey to see which title people would like best. It got people's attention and started a convo. Well done OP.

 

[Irrelevant]

The "Rez" is probably the reason, not the horses.

Ahhh... what are you actually saying here Brent? The very nature of the land ownership prevent grass from growing?