Target practice on Wild Horses

[Irrelevant]

You think that you can remove horses and everything will become paradise. Deer, antelope, elk everywhere. In truth. Just a few more cows. Nothing else will change.

That is one of the most fatalistic, bass-ackwards, and anti-conservation ideas I've ever heard and am quite shocked that it came from a long-time HT mainstay like your self, who has clearly articulated some very well thought out ideas on conservation in the past.

Just because it won't turn into a Valhalla of big game species, equivalent to the pre-colonial times, doesn't mean it's not worth doing. That idea alone run counter to EVERY SINGLE conservation project, action, and goal out there. Perfection will never be achieved, but should not hinder good projects.

 

[BrentD]

That is one of the most fatalistic, bass-ackwards, and anti-conservation ideas I've ever heard and am quite shocked that it came from a long-time HT mainstay like your self, who has clearly articulated some very well thought out ideas on conservation in the past.

What evidence do you have to conclude otherwise? Perhaps you need a reality check. I'm not being an anti-conservationist, I'm being a pragmatic, 21st-century realist.

Let's compare apples and apples - like both sides of Highway 20.

 

[Stocker]

Ok. If we can’t shoot them, how about testing A-bombs again, use up the remaining mustard gas. See if we can plug a volcano with them.


I’m just spitballing here.

 

[Irrelevant]

What evidence do you have to conclude otherwise? Perhaps you need a reality check.

So based on your logic we should stop doing salmon restoration. Reality is that we'll never get salmon back to where there were in 1800. So write em off, F' em, let's be pragmatic, let's get REAL.

Here's some evidence since the google is apparently too much.

 

[mtnrunner260]

This used to be a spring that flowed, not a river but produced.
There are a handful of deer and antelope. No cattle grazing for over 60 years.
Horses are the change.
Is it this bad everywhere? No but make no mistake that feral horses are having a significant impact on the range.
At this point the only sensible management strategy is to reduce their numbers. The dead one died from malnutrition as far as I can tell.
Oh and here's a final pic to show I'm not anti horse but pro education.

 

[windymtnman]

10,000 years.
Yes.

We Christians don't even believe that God created the world as we know it 10,000 years ago. I suppose I'm creating a secondary argument just saying that, but I have foundational beliefs that have me disregarding your answer. Even if you were correct, how can you defend "10,000 years"? Why can't it be 15,000, or 15,000,000?

 

[rwc101]

 

[BWALKER77]

Feral horses are no different than feral hogs and should be treated the same way.

 

[antlerradar]

There will not be any increase in cattle numbers if horses are removed.

 

[Irrelevant]

Even if you were correct, how can you defend "10,000 years"? Why can't it be 15,000, or 15,000,000?

Also acceptable answers. Evolution is not consistent across time nor species, but in general the slower the reproduction the longer it takes.

How can I defend? Well that Sir is an entire discipline in and of itself and a bit too much for me to peck out on HT.

 

[Don Fischer]

Problem can't be that bad. Many years ago I picked up a load of swinging horse's in Redmond, Ore that went to Boston, Mass and there on a ship to France where horse is used for food. Hard thing to do as I like horse's. But in the end is it really anyworse than raising cows for meat? We have in this country built in adaptor's about just what we eat. SEA the raise dog's for food, I can't get into that but then I've never been that hungry either!

BTW, that horse slaughter plant was burned down over 30 yrs ago!

 

[antlerradar]

Problem can't be that bad. Many years ago I picked up a load of swinging horse's in Redmond, Ore that went to Boston, Mass and there on a ship to France where horse is used for food. Hard thing to do as I like horse's. But in the end is it really anyworse than raising cows for meat? We have in this country built in adaptor's about just what we eat. SEA the raise dog's for food, I can't get into that but then I've never been that hungry either!

BTW, that horse slaughter plant was burned down over 30 yrs ago!

Neighbors just rounded up with a helicopter and shipped a whole bunch of "wild horses" to Canada. I bet a bunch of them went on to France.

 

[windymtnman]

Also acceptable answers. Evolution is not consistent across time nor species, but in general the slower the reproduction the longer it takes.

How can I defend? Well that Sir is an entire discipline in and of itself and a bit too much for me to peck out on HT.

Fair enough answer. As for the readers that believe in evolution rather than God's creation, I'd like them to tell me how this happens in evolution. That is, you have a caterpillar with a multi segmented body and a pair of legs on each segment. The caterpillar weaves itself a cocoon around itself, and while inside in a short period of time, sort of turns itself into a blob of cells, and with it's DNA onboard, soon emerges as a totally different insect. It's become a butterfly or moth with a head, abdomen, and thorax with 6 legs and a pair of wings to fly away with. How did and why did evolution manage to do that?

 

[noharleyyet]

Whole lotta 5 dollar words...have at it

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1907847116

 

[Irrelevant]

Fair enough answer. As for the readers that believe in evolution rather than God's creation, I'd like them to tell me how this happens in evolution. That is, you have a caterpillar with a multi segmented body and a pair of legs on each segment. The caterpillar weaves itself a cocoon around itself, and while inside in a short period of time, sort of turns itself into a blob of cells, and with it's DNA onboard, soon emerges as a totally different insect. It's become a butterfly or moth with a head, abdomen, and thorax with 6 legs and a pair of wings to fly away with. How did and why did evolution manage to do that?

While that example is interesting, it's really no different than the evolutionary history of any creature.

Unlike Creation, which can be explained in a few simply sentences, evolution is a bit more elaborate. I don't think anyone that can say with any specificity what environmental pressures or mutations led to the atypical butterfly evolutionary strategy you reference.

However, here are a couple of links if you're genuinely interesting in evolution.

The 'fuel of evolution' is more abundant than previously thought in wild animals

Darwinian evolution is the process by which natural selection promotes genetic changes in traits that favor survival and reproduction of individuals. How fast evolution happens depends crucially on the abundance of its "fuel": how much genetic difference there is in the ability to survive and...

phys.org

Evolution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lastly, this one may be a bit too confrontational, but certainly tackles the conflict head on.

15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense

Opponents of evolution want to make a place for creationism by tearing down real science, but their arguments don't hold up

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

So how long until we can get a go fund me for some ammo and provisions to go out and do a public service on these ferals. If they were feral cats or pigs or hairless dogs would anyone care?

 

[brockel]

Neighbors just rounded up with a helicopter and shipped a whole bunch of "wild horses" to Canada. I bet a bunch of them went on to France.

Not a bad price for loose horses at BLS right now. Round them up, sell them off, and put the money back into the habitat that’s been beat down from them

 

[windymtnman]

While that example is interesting, it's really no different than the evolutionary history of any creature.

Unlike Creation, which can be explained in a few simply sentences, evolution is a bit more elaborate. I don't think anyone that can say with any specificity what environmental pressures or mutations led to the atypical butterfly evolutionary strategy you reference.

However, here are a couple of links if you're genuinely interesting in evolution.

The 'fuel of evolution' is more abundant than previously thought in wild animals

Darwinian evolution is the process by which natural selection promotes genetic changes in traits that favor survival and reproduction of individuals. How fast evolution happens depends crucially on the abundance of its "fuel": how much genetic difference there is in the ability to survive and...

phys.org

Evolution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lastly, this one may be a bit too confrontational, but certainly tackles the conflict head on.

15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense

Opponents of evolution want to make a place for creationism by tearing down real science, but their arguments don't hold up

www.scientificamerican.com

For all you readers a couple questions, wherein I am not the Judge of your answers as to right and wrong.
1. Do you believe in God?
2. If you believe in things like evolution, rather than giving God the glory and credit for creating the world, right down to the
complexity of DNA, RNA, cellular processes, and the infinite ability to have everything work perfectly, will that in part determine
where you spend eternity. (Assuming you believe in eternal life for those that do believe?
(I sat in college classrooms for 4 yrs. paying good money to listen to my esteemed professors telling me about biology, evolution and the like and sucked it all up. But then, I did my own studying about things like intelligent design, and irreduceable complexity, and then listened to a few molecular scientists that spend 30 years looking at the complexity of what can only be seen and understood with high powered and electron microscopes. These people walked away thinking there is no way all this was created by mutations and evolution. It could never happen, no matter how many miilion years of time you gave it to come into place. Then I read the Bible and realized that it's all in that book. My advice for anyone scoffing at what I'm saying is do your own homework, and then come away with your own opinions of what is true and what are unproven theories. Best wishes.

 

[appaloosa]

For all you readers a couple questions, wherein I am not the Judge of your answers as to right and wrong.
1. Do you believe in God?
2. If you believe in things like evolution, rather than giving God the glory and credit for creating the world, right down to the
complexity of DNA, RNA, cellular processes, and the infinite ability to have everything work perfectly, will that in part determine
where you spend eternity. (Assuming you believe in eternal life for those that do believe?
(I sat in college classrooms for 4 yrs. paying good money to listen to my esteemed professors telling me about biology, evolution and the like and sucked it all up. But then, I did my own studying about things like intelligent design, and irreduceable complexity, and then listened to a few molecular scientists that spend 30 years looking at the complexity of what can only be seen and understood with high powered and electron microscopes. These people walked away thinking there is no way all this was created by mutations and evolution. It could never happen, no matter how many miilion years of time you gave it to come into place. Then I read the Bible and realized that it's all in that book. My advice for anyone scoffing at what I'm saying is do your own homework, and then come away with your own opinions of what is true and what are unproven theories. Best wishes.

Also, you need to ask yourselves:
3. Do you believe in Santa Clause?

 

[wyatty555]

Bet that got your attention!

Found this on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/Wildhorseadvocates/photos/a.341122072704998/2430984560385395

Do you want to help provide birth control to wild horses? We, PNWHA, always need new darters, as well as the American Wild Horse Campaign. All mares on our range that were due to be darted are current and darted. At least for now. But on the HMA (Herd Management area) they need help to ID mares, to find the horses and volunteers to get certified to dart. So let me tell you what to expect. You could be ready by next season.

You should: Understand the need to stay safe.
Be physically fit (Not perfect, I am 71, overweight and I have a bad knee) I can still hike slow and steady and I am willing to schedule time.

Be committed to target practice... a misplaced dart in a wild horse can cause pain and infection and the horses cannot usually be treated. It is essential you practice constantly from 12 yards to 37 yards. We avoid taking long shots unless you absolutely cannot get closer to the mare. We are not there to show off our shooting skills. We prefer safe shots in the large rump muscle, carefully avoiding the flanks, legs and face. There are lots of rules to assure clean safe shots.

The people who ID and search for horses are essential and equally important to the process. Once our team went out in advance of the darters the entire process became more effective, faster and more efficient. It is truly a team effort.

Understand our purpose to reduce the reproduction rate of the horses. The goal is to protect the range they roam on, avoid roundup and removal at the risk of horses ending up at a slaughterhouse in Canada or Mexico. This saves horses lives and saves American taxpayers a whole lot of money.

To become an ID person, photographer or help us search for horses just text me at 775 720-8200 or pm me on this page -Mary You do not have to be a professional or talented photographer. We are just looking for ID shots of all the horses so we can document the horses. I hone can work. You will need a 4-wheel drive with good clearance. You MUST want to protect wild horses and be a team player.

We would like to be prepared for fall when mares get darted to prevent them getting in foal in the spring. It takes time to get them, so we have to start early. We don't dart in heavy wind, rain, extreme heat or smoke.

To become a certified darter to deliver the vaccine PZP you will have to travel to Billings, Montana to take the course. https://www.sccpzp.org/training/ Once in a while the team travels to our area to train. (I hope they still do) But the fastest way is to go to the Science and Conservation Center in Billings.

People searching for horses is what we need the most right now so we know where they are hanging out. We can't dart them if we can't find them!

that definitely got my attention