Take Back Your Elk

[David58]

“Some states make them non-transferable beyond family

“ Would be totally fine if they went away completely, and definitely think you shouldn't be allowed to sell them.”



Why don’t you give your expert analysis of this quote taken from another post on this very subject.
Exactly what is it you think this man is saying?

Yes, the legitimacy of the landowner tag program in NM is precisely what I call into question.

I left Oregon because of the politics of the state and I found a better job elsewhere (here in NM). But one thing that was done right was allocation of landowner tags - they are based strictly on acreage, and there is a limit (up to 14 if you own 160,000+ acres) for a landowner. They cannot be transferred outside of the family. They are not unit-wide, but are limited to the registered acreage. And, they are available based upon the Management Objective - if the herd is below MO in that area, there are fewer tags.

As a citizen of New Mexico, the elk on Jim-Bob's property where you go hunt belong to me. And to every other citizen in the state. They do NOT belong to the land owner. For a landowner to be able to in effect give someone a tag in exchange for money and not cut me and other New Mexicans in on that transaction is wrong. And for the State to declare that tag good for an entire unit, not just the landowner property, is pure-dee-wrong. And for the State to crow about some 90-is % of tags going to residents is a lie, since the landowner tags are in largest part sold to out of state hunters.

Yes, I would be totally fine if landowner tags totally went away. Increase the number of tags available to residents in the draw, and maybe toss well heeled nonresidents a couple of bones, too. I think non-transferrable, and limited, landowner tags would be fine, and is preferable to their elimination (tho elimination is better than where we stand now). To top it off, the number of landowner tags needs to be published and available to the public to peruse, based again on acreage.

If NM really wants outfitter tags, they NM should have an above-board lottery for them, too. But the $$$ brought in by outfitters is limited, does not benefit the herd nor the state beyond any small amount of sales taxes collected, and as far as I am concerned the outfitters should be guiding folks that drew their own tags (and there are many that operate that way).

I am glad for you, at least for the time being, that you can bathe in the glow of your cash money and ability to buy a hunt. But the system that allows you to do that here in NM sucks.

David
NM

 

[TXLonghorn]

Texas is a collection of private land holdings with only 4% public land. New Mexico has 47% public land. Millions of acres Federal and State plus GATE lease agreements that you too enjoy if the elk permits are UW. Consider that- we tax-paying, public land hunting residents are funding your private hunt.

The allocation of E-plus is lopsided in favor of landowners. In a fair draw here, 86% of tags are allocated to residents. E-plus operates separate from the draw.
Additionally, tax reporting of those landowner tags sold privately isn’t tracked; E-Plus invites tax evasion. If the outfitter/ranch owner you use is an honest man, I’m sure they’ll share tax returns if requested.

I call horse

 

[David58]

I call horse

Of course you do.

David
NM

 

[TXLonghorn]

Of course you do.

David
NM

How big is the property you own David?
As in sections or acres.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

How big is the property you own David?
As in sections or acres.

You’re a dick.

 

[TXLonghorn]

You’re a dick.

So that means none?
You live in an apartment? or a little lot in a suburb?
You have a 1/10th of an acre “Ranchett”?
Just asking for clarity.
Don’t be hurt.

 

[David58]

How big is the property you own David?
As in sections or acres.

I happen to own .25 acres, which would be .25/640 of a section. A small portion is cultivated, the remainder has no water and no crops.

Yours is probably far bigger than mine, I am resigned to that.

I hope you enjoy your "hunts" this year, being led to an animal by a hunter so you can shoot it is a very manly pursuit. I'll try to keep in mind just how much you stimulate the NM economy while you are in state by your stops at McDonald's and the local Speedway, and be grateful for that.

Geeze, you give full credence to the worst of Texan sterotypes.

David
NM

 

[David58]

So that means none?
You live in an apartment? or a little lot in a suburb?
You have a 1/10th of an acre “Ranchett”?
Just asking for clarity.
Don’t be hurt.

You really are a piece of work, Tex. It doesn't really matter whether I own a quarter acre, quarter section, or a thousand sections. The XL on your jockstrap is not based on acreage, hunting proficiency, or the size of the cup.

And no, I'm not hurt, I am just bothered that ridiculous numbers of elk tags are effectively stolen from NM residents and given to those with money, slowly working the system into a pay-to-play system that squeezes out the hard working folks living here that should draw a tag more often than once in five or seven or more years. I am in great hopes that we can take our animals back, and if it is framed properly Texans and other out of staters like you will be in the limelight - your attitude of being entitled to our animals will be just the trick to get even our corrupt lawmakers to change the system.

You have up and made me a campaigner for this cause! Benfromalbuquerque, where do I sign up???

David
NM

 

[WildWill]

I call horse

Of course you do it doesn't support your view point. Why not just lease it all up and put a corn feeder on every section so you can feel more at home? Bet I own more land then you.

You really are a piece of work, Tex. It doesn't really matter whether I own a quarter acre, quarter section, or a thousand sections. The XL on your jockstrap is not based on acreage, hunting proficiency, or the size of the cup.

And no, I'm not hurt, I am just bothered that ridiculous numbers of elk tags are effectively stolen from NM residents and given to those with money, slowly working the system into a pay-to-play system that squeezes out the hard working folks living here that should draw a tag more often than once in five or seven or more years. I am in great hopes that we can take our animals back, and if it is framed properly Texans and other out of staters like you will be in the limelight - your attitude of being entitled to our animals will be just the trick to get even our corrupt lawmakers to change the system.

You have up and made me a campaigner for this cause! Benfromalbuquerque, where do I sign up???

David
NM

My grandad use to say "never argue with a idiot the common passersby can't tell who's who". He's not interested in moving the conversation forward or explaining why he feels the way he does, he just knows that he benefits from the current system and all other considerations matter little to none to him.

 

[NMGuy]

As a citizen of New Mexico, the elk on Jim-Bob's property where you go hunt belong to me. And to every other citizen in the state. They do NOT belong to the land owner.

If Jim Bob is also a NM resident, do the elk not equally belong to him? Not trying to argue, it is a legitimate question I have. Parts of this conversation almost seem to paint all NM landowners as being in the same category as the Non-resident folks. Seems to me that the NM landowners who actually live in NM have an equal claim to NM wildlife, or am I missing something?

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

If Jim Bob is also a NM resident, do the elk not equally belong to him? Not trying to argue, it is a legitimate question I have. Parts of this conversation almost seem to paint all NM landowners as being in the same category as the Non-resident folks. Seems to me that the NM landowners who actually live in NM have an equal claim to NM wildlife, or am I missing something?

I think you and I agree on RO tags if private tags are to be issued. My contention with all of this is that so many “private” allocations (like 1/3 of all permits) are made of which some are UW tags. By that unit wide rationale, some landowner in say Reserve gets private tags issued for that cover the entirety of a primo unit. Landowner can then do whatever they wish with said tags.

 

[NMGuy]

I think you and I agree on RO tags if private tags are to be issued. My contention with all of this is that so many “private” allocations (like 1/3 of all permits) are made of which some are UW tags. By that unit wide rationale, some landowner in say Reserve gets private tags issued for that cover the entirety of a primo unit. Landowner can then do whatever they wish with said tags.

You are correct. I see landowner tags as a beneficial tool NMGF can use to manage the elk population across all lands (public and private) and I think RO tags are primarily the way to go with that. I could see some benefit in a small number of UW tags under specific circumstances.

 

[Valley1320]

You are correct. I see landowner tags as a beneficial tool NMGF can use to manage the elk population across all lands (public and private) and I think RO tags are primarily the way to go with that. I could see some benefit in a small number of UW tags under specific circumstances.

How can you see benefit to UW tags? Example? So many of those properties that have UW tags have no elk on them during the elk hunts so there's no point in going and hunting it if you draw a public tag. So therefore it does not really make it fair to us other guys... Hopefully that makes sense what I'm trying to say..

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

How can you see benefit to UW tags? Example? So many of those properties that have UW tags have no elk on them during the elk hunts so there's no point in going and hunting it if you draw a public tag. So therefore it does not really make it fair to us other guys... Hopefully that makes sense what I'm trying to say..

GMU 4 comes to mind. An overwhelming amount of real estate is private or TA land grant. Small portion State and a little chunk BLM up on the stateline. Public draw is already limited to public and any accessible UW ranch. I say the hell with that. Let’s try a pilot of RO there.

 

[Treeshark]

How can you see benefit to UW tags?

The benefits are fairly obvious if you’re the one buying (or selling) them.

 

[sjl2012]

How can you see benefit to UW tags? Example? So many of those properties that have UW tags have no elk on them during the elk hunts so there's no point in going and hunting it if you draw a public tag. So therefore it does not really make it fair to us other guys... Hopefully that makes sense what I'm trying to say..

Unit 48 comes to mind right away. With all the broken State land in there and the constant controversy the UW ranches in that unit generate a lot of good access. There are multiple inholdings that use UW tags each year and should qualify for UW tags.

 

[NMGuy]

How can you see benefit to UW tags? Example? So many of those properties that have UW tags have no elk on them during the elk hunts so there's no point in going and hunting it if you draw a public tag. So therefore it does not really make it fair to us other guys... Hopefully that makes sense what I'm trying to say..

The properties with no elk on them during the hunts are where I see the benefit. If you give me a RO tag and there are no elk on my land during season (every year), there is little financial value in that tag if I try to sell it. That means that tag does little to offset the damages caused by the elk when they're eating my crops all summer or chewing my grass all winter. However, if you give me a UW tag, it has much more value and therefore offsets my "loss", if that makes sense.

 

[TXLonghorn]

You really are a piece of work, Tex. It doesn't really matter whether I own a quarter acre, quarter section, or a thousand sections. The XL on your jockstrap is not based on acreage, hunting proficiency, or the size of the cup.

And no, I'm not hurt, I am just bothered that ridiculous numbers of elk tags are effectively stolen from NM residents and given to those with money, slowly working the system into a pay-to-play system that squeezes out the hard working folks living here that should draw a tag more often than once in five or seven or more years. I am in great hopes that we can take our animals back, and if it is framed properly Texans and other out of staters like you will be in the limelight - your attitude of being entitled to our animals will be just the trick to get even our corrupt lawmakers to change the system.

You have up and made me a campaigner for this cause! Benfromalbuquerque, where do I sign up???

David
NM

Guys like you crack me up David. Your dreams of Utopia and how you wish the world to work.
In your state I play by the rules and laws set by your state government.
Its not entitlement at all.
I play the cards as they are delt.

Entitlement is people that don’t own large areas of property with game on it attempting to dictate to those that do how to manage it.
My original point was New Mexico land owners should be allowed to do as they please with their property and everything on it. Those are the people putting money in the ground in the form of taxes and agricultural infrastructure.
The very same infrastructure that benefits the cattle, and the wildlife.

Let me break it down for you.
Hypothetically I own ten sections bordering BLM and said game animal is standing on my side of the fence, I do what I want with it, sell it, kill it, leave it alone.
If he jumps the fence over where your camped on BLM drinking your Mtn Ops smoothie, he’s all yours. Simple

 

[WildWill]

Guys like you crack me up David. Your dreams of Utopia and how you wish the world to work.
In your state I play by the rules and laws set by your state government.
Its not entitlement at all.
I play the cards as they are delt.

Entitlement is people that don’t own large areas of property with game on it attempting to dictate to those that do how to manage it.
My original point was New Mexico land owners should be allowed to do as they please with their property and everything on it. Those are the people putting money in the ground in the form of taxes and agricultural infrastructure.
The very same infrastructure that benefits the cattle, and the wildlife.

Let me break it down for you.
Hypothetically I own ten sections bordering BLM and said game animal is standing on my side of the fence, I do what I want with it, sell it, kill it, leave it alone.
If he jumps the fence over where your camped on BLM drinking your Mtn Ops smoothie, he’s all yours. Simple

Wow just wow! You sir clearly have no concept of the North American model of conservation or just don't care. First nobody owns a live wild animal regardless of who's land it's standing on. Attitudes like yours are why people don't want any landowner tags monetizing and turning wildlife into glorified livestock.

 

[Valley1320]

The properties with no elk on them during the hunts are where I see the benefit. If you give me a RO tag and there are no elk on my land during season (every year), there is little financial value in that tag if I try to sell it. That means that tag does little to offset the damages caused by the elk when they're eating my crops all summer or chewing my grass all winter. However, if you give me a UW tag, it has much more value and therefore offsets my "loss", if that makes sense.

Ya I see what your saying... and it makes sense but something about it I still don't like. Not sure how to put my thoughts into words other than I don't like that someone can get a tag from a landowner and pay big money for it and still get to hunt the national forest with it, if they would cut that crap out and put that amount of tags into the draw instead...idk where my thought is going but there's a better way I feel like than how it's done. I wouldn't mind the unit wide tags being unit wide for any private in the unit with written permission. The cow elk are doing by far more damage then bulls, (mainly cause there are way more cows). But pple are paying so much for these tags cuz they want a trophy bull and not a cow, that's the majority of these tags. I know not everyone is like that and I'm glad for those that arnt that way..