Tag your animal immediately!

[npaden]

I'm with everyone else on this and am guilty of this exact same thing on multiple occasions.

With that said, the letter of the law was in fact broken. You were essentially going 76 mph in a 75 mph zone. Should you have received a ticket? No. Should you have had your elk taken away? No.

However, I don't see that you are going to get a refund of your expenses out of all of this.

Technically the animal should have been tagged before you started taking pictures. Was that a big enough deal to take the elk, etc. No. But it was in violation of the letter of the law.

The thing that amazes me is that the few "Wardens" shows that I've watched made the warden's seem very lenient. Over and over again they will have 2 or 3 violations identified and only write the people up for 1 of them and it will usually just be a small fine. Things like trespassing, etc. and they just get off with a small fine and let them go.

This situation seems to be the polar opposite where someone was just barely over the tiniest line (i.e. going 76 in a 75) and had the book thrown at them.

Someone must have pissed in the guys cheerios that morning or something...

 

[noharleyyet]

Funny what people do during their 15 minutes of fame.

 

[mtlion]

He did say that the FWP is in the process of reviewing whether they will continue to participate in future filming for the Wardens TV show.

It does not surprise me in the least that it has come to this. Think about how many contacts a field warden makes in a day. How many in a week? In a season? How many of those contacts result in a citation? Even a minor one let alone a big exciting TV worthy one? It can't take long before the pressure to produce something gets to both the warden and the camera man. If they truly showed what those guys do all day you'd get a lot of footage of them sitting on their butts driving around, taking phone calls, investigating dead end leads. Very exciting TV, yes?

I can imagine the vibes in the cab of that big brown warden's truck that morning.

Opening day of Montana big game season, the excitement is in the air...We've got a TV show to make!

 

[cowboy]

I wish I knew how to start a new post taking a poll. We all know that by the lawyer definition of the law that a violation occurred. However....

Simple question: Have you ever not tagged a big game animal immediately?

I sure hope that the law is reviewed as it currently is stated.

PS: In all the outdoor TV shows that I have viewed I can not remember one incidence where a picture showed an animal tagged prior to the taking of the hero shots

 

[BuzzH]

Every now and then, stupid people collide...

 

[RobG]

Simple question: Have you ever not tagged a big game animal immediately?

Of course we all have, but not after picking up the phone and discussing how to remove the body... The warden waited until he felt there was intent to not tag it, not because Jim did a little prayer. My 12 year old daughter managed to overcome her excitement enough to get the tag on in a couple minutes. I think you guys can manage too.

More importantly I think we can show some respect for the law and the people who have to enforce it by tagging it within a couple of minutes. The law is there for a reason; it easy to understand and not exactly hard to follow.

Jim - The warden was a dick - I can't believe he took your animal - but I agree you should just get over it. You clearly broke the law and are wasting our FWP money trying to convince yourself you didn't. It sucks to be an example, but at least all, err, I guess most, of us will remember the importance of validating the tag shortly after securing the animal.

 

[mtmiller]

More importantly I think we can show some respect for the law and the people who have to enforce it by tagging it within a couple of minutes. The law is there for a reason; it easy to understand and not exactly hard to follow.

So "a couple minutes" is immediately?

 

[Outdoor Junkie]

Rob, here is where you are wrong. Jim is not wasting the FWP's money by challenging this. The FWP is the one wasting the money by taking an animal that clearly was harvested and tagged wihout any intent to be unethical or break the law. The tag was on the animal when the warden came over and he had to cut it off. There was not intent to violate the law and while technically he was supposed to tag it "immediately", 20 minutes is not an agregious amount of time to warrent the warden taking the animal away.

I'm sure if you dig through the laws and look at everything we do, almost every single person breaks some sort of law every day ( i.e going 66 in a 65).

Fight on Jim! This officer had the opportunity to provide a teaching moment to you guys and passed. Hopefully this situation ends up being a teaching moment for him.

Jim - The warden was a dick - I can't believe he took your animal - but I agree you should just get over it. You clearly broke the law and are wasting our FWP money trying to convince yourself you didn't. It sucks to be an example, but at least all, err, I guess most, of us will remember the importance of validating the tag shortly after securing the animal.

 

[BuzzH]

This is a case of 50/50 stupidity.

Its really easy to tag the animal immediately and understand the law, its also really easy for a Warden to use an appropriate level of discretion in applying the law.

The outcome is a classic example of 2 people thinking they're right, and both are wrong. Neither will get a dimes worth of sympathy from me.

I think the Warden should pull his head out of his arse and use better judgement in the future. I also think the hunter should pull his head out of his arse and just tag the animal in a timely fashion as required by regulation.

What shouldn't be happening is this crap of suing, wanting expenses paid, apologies...grow up, man up, and move on.

Good grief...

 

[Jim-MN-ELK]

RobG This will be my 4th post here so it won't be very difficult to read my earlier statements. I am not debating the fact that "By The Letter Of The Law" I was wrong with my interpretation of "immediately". When I realized that this young warden was serious about taking my elk, I even offered to pay the fine. By then no matter what I said, his mind was set and he was going to be the next big star on the Wardens. And RobG... exactly how am I wasting FWP's money? it's my guess they will do whatever it takes to not let my brother and I see the film. They would be much better off, and it would cost them less, if they just making a public statement admitting they could have done things better in my case.

Almost "immediately" after the Billings Gazette ran this story, comments started coming in about this particular young warden. People mentioned him by name and were not surprised about what he did. In another forum a comment came from Drew Scotts high school coach saying...

Quote:
"Re: Cameraman with Warden / Hunter loses Elk - didn't tag soon enough
by hornhntr on 12/09/2014 1:44 PM | Reply #30 | "Quote" | "Quick Reply" |
hornhntr
Joined: 11/10/2008
Location: ND
I used to coach this warden when he was in high school and knowing his personality, I could definitely see how he would have changed his way of handling things when the cameras came on.

He was a bit of a show off.
End Quote!

If you think I'm wasting the FWP's time you are sadly mistaken. I want the video played back to all parties involved. So far the FWP has seen it but why not my brother and me? It appears to be that the main deciding factor of the judgment laid down on me is "The warden clearly had probable cause to issue a ticket". If that's the case... SHOW ME! The owner of Muddy Boot Productions said we would get a copy or a link to view this video... what happened to that? The producer also referred to his relationship with the FWP as a "Partnership". Although when I said "Contract" with them he agreed. Either way... we feel the film has already been tapered with and most likely soon disappear like Watergate.

I am fighting now to get inexperienced show offs with zero common sense, with stars in their eyes, out of the field. They need retraining and practicable, in field screening. We are fighting to change the wording in the regulations book to DEFINE IMMEDIATELY. We are fighting to get Reality TV cameras out of the warden's pick ups... which I feel is the most important fight of all.

THANK YOU F250 for this:
Quote "Many Wardens are hunters themselves, and would understand the excitement of taking an elk. However, it seems that many of the Wardens that are being hired today, have little or no hunting experience. They are sent to a Police Academy, and come out Police Officers - not Game Wardens. Common sense, discretion, and the ability to make decisions based on the totality of circumstances are paramount for a Warden to sort out field violations". End Quote

 

[BuzzH]

Jesus H..

If I were a warden watching your behavior via YOUR account of the story, I would have been suspicious as well. Not siding with the decision making process by the warden, but....

You take pictures, make a phone call, etc. for 20 some odd minutes prior to "immediately" tagging your animal?

The fact you hadn't tagged the animal and were making phone calls seems suspect to me....as in, "I wonder if this guy is calling the old lady for a tag?".

Now we have to clarify the definition of "immediately" because the Webster definition isn't good enough?

The entitlement attitude and lack of personal responsibility is really something...make 800 excuses for why the law doesn't apply to me...Sad.

Why not spend the time, energy, and money doing something productive for wildlife, wildlife habitat, etc. instead of this urination competition that your actions caused?

What a joke.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Hey Buzzy! I don't see a single tag on any animal you have posted up on the MM threads and I know some were taken in Montana! Better practice what you preach there old buddy, LOL!!!

 

[BuzzH]

Floppy,

Maybe you should get your eyes checked....

BTW, I have every single tag, in my possession, from every big-game animal I've ever taken since I was12. They fill about 3 gallon Ziploc bags.

About a gallons worth here:

 

[tjones]

It wasn't anything we read! This was televised on the weekly show "Wardens" and it was easy to see everything that went on and like everyone stated, the guy got screwed by a GW that used no common sense or discretion.

Topgun, where did you see this? Maybe post a link so we can see it and figure out what happened.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Floppy,

Maybe you should get your eyes checked....

BTW, I have every single tag, in my possession, from every big-game animal I've ever taken since I was12. They fill about 3 gallon Ziploc bags.

About a gallons worth here:

Great! We all know you're a bonafide killer! Now show some of those tags on the animals at the kill sites in the photos that you've posted on MM over the last couple years!!! My eyes are fine and unless they were on their rear end out of sight not a one has a tag on it in the photos. Maybe instead of showing all those tags in that picture that don't mean squat you'd like to post up all the pictures I'm talking about that you say have tags on them, LOL! PS: NO photoshopping either!!!

tjones---Read my post on the previous page about the show.

 

[BuzzH]

Floppy,

I tag them typically on a rear hock with electrical tape. At times, I've been known to notch tags and place them in my pocket, take pictures without tags, then place it on the hock. I go through a lot of effort to get good pictures, including not having orange, tags, rifles, packs, excessive blood, etc. in the pictures.

If a warden were to see me do that, and still wanted to scratch a ticket, I'd be guilty as hell. If I felt like it was unjust, I'd talk to a judge about it and let it go upon decision.

What I wouldn't do is throw my sucker in the dirt and act like a 2-year old and demand an apology, my expenses, revamp the entire FWP warden force, demand a new definition of immediately, and shut down production of a TV show.

But, hey, that's just me...

I don't expect the laws and regulations to apply to everyone but me.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Whatever, but I figured you'd come up with something to try to cover your butt, LOL! It also sounds like what you stated in your second sentence is exactly what Jim did and the Prosecutor dropped the charges and told the G&F to give him the bull's rack. They should also have had the meat in storage to give him since Jim was innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The case was concluded and they didn't follow the law on that! Incidentally, at the start of the Wardens show they state that all parties in the show are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. IMHO Jim has every right in the world to expect remuneration for having his game confiscated and not returned under the requirements of the law. He's out hundreds of pounds of valuable meat and could give a rip about getting the rack back to remind him of this travesty of justice.

 

[BuzzH]

Floppy, your comprehension is a bit off.

I don't take 20+ minutes taking pictures and making phone calls before I notch my tag.

I may do all of those things AFTER I notch the tag. What he did is NOT what I said I do, at all. I understand what immediately means, and act accordingly.

Make up the rules as you go along, you may get stung...

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Floppy, your comprehension is a bit off.

I don't take 20+ minutes taking pictures and making phone calls before I notch my tag.

I may do all of those things AFTER I notch the tag. What he did is NOT what I said I do, at all. I understand what immediately means, and act accordingly.

Make up the rules as you go along, you may get stung...

Let's not discuss who has or hasn't got reading comprehension and just get down to the facts of this case since you always like to use FACTs. Jim took the ticket and went to the Prosecutor to enter a plea that he felt was necessary based on what happened. The Prosecutor used his discretion and saw that the GW botched the whole deal and didn't want to proceed with any kind of a court case that he might not win. When that happened and the rack was ordered to be returned to the rightful owner the meat should have also been given to Jim because he was innocent of the charges when it was dropped. The fact that he's following up on the matter is his legal right and it appears that 99% of us feel he's doing the correct thing. You have just stated that you might have the same thing happen to you the way you do your thing and that you would also follow it up with a visit to the Judge. If the GW had used a little common sense this whole debacle wouldn't have happened. Having been in LE for the MDA up here for over 30 years before I retired in 2002, I have to agree with our retired GW that some training in common sense is needed for that GW and why in all my years I never took a case into court that I might lose by not using a little of it.

 

[BuzzH]

Floppy,

I don't agree one bit with what the warden did...totally mishandled it.

I also don't agree one bit with how the hunter handled it either.

But, to take this issue to the extreme he is, with wanting everything short of a second coming of Christ, takes it to a whole new level of ridiculous.

Both parties are dead wrong in how they've chosen to deal with this situation...cluster shag that isn't getting any better.

BTW, if the meat is really that big of an issue, and somebody may starve to death over it...I have a freezer full that I'll donate right now, all in packages. Probably have another elk in the round here in a few days.

There, now we can be friends again...