Swift Boat Group Leader Exposed as Fraud

[Calif. Hunter]

Ithaca - what in the hell does any of that have to do with the Swift Boat Vets' statements? You normally make intelligent arguments, but lately you act as if you are smoking crack. Posts totally unrelated to the topic, personal attacks without provocation (you usually only do that when provoked), wild accusations and so on.

 

[Nemont]

Mars,
I believe the president is playing right into Kerry strategy. Who continues to make Vietnam era service THE issue this election? It is not the Republicans. Why? Because the democrats do not want to have to run on John Kerry Senate record.

Take the issue off the table and just say what happened 36 years ago is in the past. It was a confusing time where people did things that they may now regret.

Then attack Kerry on his record. Liberal, Liberal to the left of Ted Kennedy Liberal. Terry Mcaweful is attempting to make JFK a centrist and he has NO record of voting in the middle of any issue.

FWIW the Democrats seem to be making a big blunder also. President Bush is vulnerable on a couple of issue that even the conservative base ie budget deficits, soaring trade deficits, etc. yet ever time JFK is asked a question the answer starts with "Well when I was in Vietnam....."

Mr. Kerry what are your thoughts on North Korea? JFK, " Well when I was in Vietnam I had a lot time to think about North Korea...."

Anyway that is my own opinion so take it for what it is worth. I also agree that Kerry should denounce Michael Moore and George Soros. What is good for the Elephant is good for the Donkey.

Nemont

[ 08-20-2004, 11:13: Message edited by: Nemont ]

 

[Ithaca 37]

Cali, I took out the comic Bushisms. You're right, they shouldn't be in this topic.

"Posts totally unrelated to the topic, personal attacks without provocation (you usually only do that when provoked), wild accusations and so on."

Can you give me any other examples of what you're accusing me of?

And since you brought up "personal attacks", are you going to address MD for her attack on EG and me about 5 posts above this one?

 

[Calif. Hunter]

There has been so much of that (personal attacks) lately, Ithaca, that I would spend my time doing nothing but admonishing people if I were to start. I was just questioning why you seemed to be starting things, instead of just responding in kind.

I'm not going to take the time to go back through the last month or two of posts in SI to find the ones where you mentioned MD4me when she wasn't even actively posting on here for a while. Lately, this has been looking more and more like the late, unlamented Pig Pen.

The point here is to debate - not attack the person when you disagree. If you can't refute the statement with facts or state a dissenting opinion without attacking the messenger, then perhaps you shouldn't respond. This is addressed to everyone, including myself, as I can get irritated and respond in anger, too.

And this is a private site, so I take direction from Moosie, Del, etc. - not the users. If they want to kick me off or ban me - they can.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Calif., OK "I'm not going to take the time to go back through the last month or two of posts in SI to find the ones where you mentioned MD4me when she wasn't even actively posting ....."

Then how about just looking at this topic and see who started calling me and EG liars? Seems like your criticism is kinda one sided.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Fine - here is just one more recent example where MD4me started a topic and you and EG began personal attacks and comments about wearing a helmet, before she ever responded to anything you posted.

http://www.huntandlodge.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=002988

Happy now?

 

[JoseCuervo]

Cali,

Aren't you the pot calling the kettle black??? Even in just this topic....

Yeah, I know - you'd think people would check out the stuff they get before posting on here.

Was that a debate point, or a jab at somebody??? (And I am not sure who, as you didn't call out who ever it was you were jabbing).

What do you call someone who calls someone else a liar, and is lying himself?

Was that a debate point, or a jab at somebody??? Are you attacking issues or people???


Cali - what in the hell does any of that have to do with the Swift Boat Vets' statements? You normally make intelligent arguments, but lately you act as if you are smoking crack. Posts totally unrelated to the topic, personal attacks without provocation (you usually only do that when provoked), wild accusations and so on.


Cali,
Show me where I attacked ANYBODY (other than Dubya) in this thread????

 

[Calif. Hunter]

ElkGunner - are you under the mistaken impression that I have to answer to you?

 

[JoseCuervo]

Absolutely not Cali, most of the questions I ask of you are far more complicated than you can answer. I generally only ask them so that you can have something to strive for, the ability to have a reasoned discussion.

Cali, MD has long since lost any courtsey and respect from me. Go read the posts on the Owyhee Initative and you will see why.

But again, why do you attack people, but not defend others who are being attacked? Just look at this thread....

 

[MarlandS]

hey Gunner, earlier you said, "Hey Michael and Cali, Who funded the $100k and the $400k that bought all the Swifties advertising????"

if you'd take a little time to research instead of attempting to rock the boat you'd know that there have been something like 10,000 individual contributors to the Swiftvets.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

If you are asking why I don't defend you, the answer is that you are, by far, the worst offender in that regard in recent history.


Do you want to compare SAT scores? National Merit Scholarship scores? IQ?

I was in Who's Who of American High School students and tested in the 99+ percentile. Had scholarships to Gonzaga, Pepperdine and a host of others - but my draft number was "1" and there were no more student deferments. I was the youth spokesman for the United Way drives in 1970 in Long Beach, a much bigger town than Boise. I don't like to focus on such things, but you're the one asking for the "qualifications" and questioning my intelligence.

I started as a messenger for a title company after getting out of the service, and now run a $70 million dollar title company in the most competitive market in the nation.

That is the first and last time you will hear anything about me personally.

So shut the F+++ up about me. You know nothing about me.

 

[MarlandS]

Nemont, here's a thought for you. Why would Bush attack Kerry's record in the Senate so early in the game? The American people have a short attention span (as evidenced here in this forum) wait another 30-45 days, Bush's "October surprise" may not be something as grand as a hughe cache of WMD's or OBL being captured, it might be something as simple as the truth about Kerry supported by the voting records.

Kerry has lost a large chunk of support from Veterans, even with Bush not quite following through with his promisees on their benefits, let Kerry keep shooting himself in the foot, leaves Bush with a lot more bullets that way.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Mars,

I did do some research, and the $100k came from a Perry, as we discussed last week on another thread. We also discussed where the $400k came from....

527's are about as "independent" as the RNC (or DNC) in my book. Dubya is allowing the swifties to do his dirty work, just as Kerry is allowing MoveOn to do his. The difference is that Kerry is at least a big enough man to denounce the ads when they step over the line. Dubya won't.

Houston homebuilder, Christian zealout and hardcore GOP backer Bob J. Perry was funded, at least partially, the 'Swift Boat' attack ads since recanted by one Veteran.

Anti-Kerry Vet Retracts Claim
August 6, 2004

WASHINGTON (CBS) The Kerry campaign has accused the Swift Boat group of having political ties to the Republican Party.

"Far from being a grassroots organization of veterans, this group is a front for the right-wing Texas Republicans to try and take away one of John Kerry’s political strengths -- his service to the country in Vietnam," the campaign charged in a 36-page document given to reporters.

And, indeed, a wealthy Texan and prolific Republican donor is helping bankroll the anti-Kerry ad campaign.

Houston homebuilder BOB J. PERRY has donated at least $100,000 to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Perry's other donations in the 2003-04 cycle include $10,000 to the pro-Republican Club for Growth and at least $19,250 to federal candidates and party committees, including $2,000 to Bush's re-election effort.

Some television stations have agreed to pull the controversial commercial, and one of the veterans who criticized Kerry's service now says he was mistaken.

The 60-second spot -- scheduled to run in small markets in three swing states -- Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin -- features Vietnam veterans who accuse Kerry of lying about his decorated Vietnam War record and betraying his fellow veterans by later opposing the conflict. - http://kutv.com/topstories/topstories_story_219143719.html
------------------------------------------------------------

Perry, Bob J. & Doylene
The Center for Public Integrity

Perry is the top individual contributor to Texas governor Rick Perry, who took office when George W. Bush became president and was elected to a four year term in 2002, but there is no relation, according to both. Bob Perry, of Perry Homes, is a homebuilder from Houston who is also one of the top contributors to Texans for Lawsuit Reform, a political action committee (itself heavily supportive of Gov. Perry) whose primary concern is tort reform.

Total Contributions to 527 Committees since August 2000 by BOB J. PERRY :
Amount Contributed . . . Committee
$300,000 . . . Majority Leader's Fund
$180,000 . . . Americans for a Republican Majority Non-Federal Account
$165,000 . . . Texans for a Republican Majority
$100,000 . . . Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
$50,000 . . . . People for Enterprise, Trade and Economic Growth
$50,000 . . . . Republican Majority Issues Committee
$25,000 . . . . American Dream PAC
$25,000 . . . . GOPAC, Inc.
$10,000 . . . . Club for Growth Inc.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/527/search.aspx?act=con&sec=indprof&orgid=806

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hey, I thought Paws got banned, now he appears to have stolen Cali's log on, and is back into posting resume's on the Internet.....

That is hilarious....

Hey Cali,
You got any Dutch Oven recipes you can share???

Should we just call you Mr. California?

Again Cali, if you are really interested in cleaning this place up, you have to start with yourself, and then be fair in all directions....

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hey MarS,

If 10,000 have given to the Swifties, and Perry gave $100k, that means the other 9,999 gave 58k, or about the price of a $6 burger from Carls Jr....

You don't really think this is a "grassroots" effort by a bunch of veterans, do you???

Houston homebuilder Bob J. Perry has donated at least $100,000 to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a suburban Washington-based group airing a new ad in which Vietnam veterans who served on swiftboats accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of lying about his war record.

The group bought $500,000 of airtime for the 60-second ad to air in the battleground states of Wisconsin, Ohio and West Virginia.

The effort is reminiscent of a 2000 effort that helped drive George W. Bush's then-rival John McCain from the presidential race.

Four years ago, Dallas brothers Sam and Charles Wyly financed $2.5 million in ads run under the auspices of "Republicans for Clean Air" criticizing McCain in the week before GOP presidential primaries in California, New York and Ohio. Those ads promoted then-Texas Gov. Bush's environmental record and criticized that of McCain, the Arizona senator. Bush won the primaries in all three states.

Perry's June donation accounted for most of the $158,750 that Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, founded in April, reported raising as of June 30. John Krugh, a spokesman for Perry Homes, declined to comment on Perry's contribution.

 

[Nemont]

Mars,
I don't disagree with what the Swifties are saying. I think that Kerry is a guy who speaks to people and says what is politically expediant. He has no core values, no core message, no shame for turning on those guys still serving while he is calling them murderers, rapist and thugs.
I was speaking soley from my limited knowledge of politics and how a candidate's message plays in Peoria.

If Americans have such a short attention span then why are we refighting the Vietnam war? October surprise or not the American people should have a look at what exactly are JFK's positions on issues that matter.

The swifties are getting a lot of support from a lot individual donars and will have more then enough money to continue their ads against Kerry. Why not root for the swifties while taking the moral high ground? Let them continue to hammer away at JFK's service and let the President sit back, distanced from the fray.

Nemont

 

[Calif. Hunter]

...and I find it hilarious that you call people stupid or elevate yourself above them when you know nothing about them - and you are the one with the signature "My Own Private Idaho" - so I think you need to look in the mirror and adjust your own ego.

I mean, how vain is this?

Quote : Absolutely not Cali, most of the questions I ask of you are far more complicated than you can answer.

I doubt it. Once again, you sink to personal attacks.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hey MarS,

And here is the other $400k that Michael and Cali weren't able to find....

Again, do you really think this is a Vetrans group????

According to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth’s IRS and FEC filings, the group is bankrolled by two Bush friends: Texas GOP backer Bob J. Perry, who has donated more than $100,000 and Crow Holdings, a Dallas development company run by Harlan Crow, a trustee for the George H.W. Bush Presidential Library. Crow provided the bulk of the remaining budget for the group's operations, including the anti-Kerry television ads -- more than $400,000.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Cali,

You are right.... You deserve supreme respect and admiration. Is it ok if I call you Mr. Phillip P. California????

Look at you wanting to compare SAT scores and posting IQs.... I thought that went out with the Imaginary Corporal...

But again, why do you even care what other adults insult each other, when you are as guilty as everybody else?

I think you will find, people that debate the issues with me don't get called stupid (Mars, Fecl, Nemont, etc...), but those who attack me will get attacked back. That seems fair.

You have taken to personal attacks against me, so you will likely have to suffer the same. Not that big of a deal, and I don't really care if you stop or not, all I have ever asked of people is that they keep them in SI, as I don't want to waste my time reading them in other areas, or finding out about them in the Adult Section, a section I don't frequent.

 

[Nemont]

EG,
My question is if bank rolling political groups by friends is something that is not right what about George Soros. I think he has spent much more of his own money then anyone for poltical issues.

Soros, who has financed efforts to promote open societies in more than 50 countries around the world, is bringing the fight home, he said. On Monday, he and a partner committed up to $5 million to MoveOn.org, a liberal activist group, bringing to $15.5 million the total of his personal contributions to oust Bush.

Overnight, Soros, 74, has become the major financial player of the left. He has elicited cries of foul play from the right. And with a tight nod, he pledged: "If necessary, I would give more money."

The swifties have just as much right as MoveOn.org to say what they think about a candidate.

Nemont