So it happens.....

[TheJason]

i dunno, it would be for the jury to decide if two broken jaws bones constitutes "serious bodily injury." but i'm seriously guessing not. and i wouldn't want to gamble on it. my mind goes to irreparable life changing injuries under those words. the argument could be however: "without the gun he would've done even more damage" which is likely a very valid argument as the perception of that after seeing a guys face pummeled multiple time is real and likely valid.

i mean, yes, if was carrying a gun and i saw this going down i would probably have it in my hands. as more of a method of "something needs to stop this (in the sense that a loaded gun pointed at an aggressor should be able to freeze up the situation)" vs. "time to blow someone apart" thing.

people get their jaws broken in bar fights over women though, not sure that's a good reason to shoot someone in the chest. but it's also an endless "what if" game that's impossible to play.

I understand and appreciate your apprehension. However, I can assure you major fractures of the skull will meet this threshold. Instead of a broken jaw, you could easily have a broken orbital bone and loss of an eye. He could also easily sustain a severe concussion with loss of mental faculties.

If a guy was getting the boots put to him on the ground, and bleeding from the head, would a reasonable person feel there is a likelihood they victim was in danger of or experiencing serious bodily harm?

 

[Deleted member 52098]

Texas is CO's Mexico.

FACTS

 

[KB_]

Even if the story is fabricated and these dudes actually stole an elk from the other two. Beating someone to that level over a cow elk or any elk is absolutely childish. Call the damn warden if you run into that problem.

To the folks who keep saying I would pulled my gun immediately. Listen, unless your a combat veteran or a Cop I am fairly confident you dont have a tenth of the training required to be proficient in that situation with a firearm.

Awful that dude had that happen to him and he will likely be jaded toward hunting for the rest of his life. I feel awful for him and I hope he makes a full recovery, some people suck.

 

[DouglasR]

You don’t bring a gun to a fist fight.
Props to the victims for doing the honorable thing.

 

[TOGIE]

I understand and appreciate your apprehension. However, I can assure you major fractures of the skull will meet this threshold. Instead of a broken jaw, you could easily have a broken orbital bone and loss of an eye. He could also easily sustain a sever concussion with loss of mental faculties.

agree there.

so maybe this can maybe sum up my thoughts:

1. guy gets face pummeled ultimately just has two broken jaw bones, victims friend shoots and kills aggressor. now it's all over, jury sees two broken jaw bones and says "this was not imminent death or a life altering serious bodily injury." guy gets 20 years in prison for protecting his friend.

or

2. everthing happens the same except he suffered a skull fracture and internal bleeding of the brain, the DA never presses charges or the jury says, "well yeah, that' some serious bodily injury - not guilty"



i'm not willing to risk my freedom on that toss up. cause it is a toss up, you don't know what the result of hte punches was until after the fact. or perhaps maybe the DA or jury would see how easily scenario two could've been the result had you not intervened

but man, the likelihood of losing your freedom or life whenever you pull a gun has me very apprehensive. i think i generally need to see guns or knives to use a gun.

 

[Bigjay73]

The thing that juries don't seem to understand is that a victim has absolutely no clue what the aggressor is capable of mentally or physically. In my mind, anyone who comes after you in a violent manner, armed, unarmed, big, small is capable of killing you with their bare hands. Plenty of people die from one punch, the onus shouldn't be on the victim to prove the intentions.

 

[Bigjay73]

Even if the story is fabricated and these dudes actually stole an elk from the other two. Beating someone to that level over a cow elk or any elk is absolutely childish. Call the damn warden if you run into that problem.

To the folks who keep saying I would pulled my gun immediately. Listen, unless your a combat veteran or a Cop I am fairly confident you dont have a tenth of the training required to be proficient in that situation with a firearm.

Awful that dude had that happen to him and he will likely be jaded toward hunting for the rest of his life. I feel awful for him and I hope he makes a full recovery, some people suck.

These guys will more than likely have some pretty bad ptsd, will need as much mental therapy as physical.

 

[Bigjay73]

Can't imagine somebody won't soon recognize the description of the men or vehicles and turn these guys in.

 

[TheJason]

agree there.

so maybe this can maybe sum up my thoughts:

1. guy gets face pummeled ultimately just has two broken jaw bones, victims friend shoots and kills aggressor. now it's all over, jury sees two broken jaw bones and says "this was not imminent death or a life altering serious bodily injury." guy gets 20 years in prison for protecting his friend.

or

2. everthing happens the same except he suffered a skull fracture and internal bleeding of the brain, the DA never presses charges or the jury says, "well yeah, that' some serious bodily injury - not guilty"



i'm not willing to risk my freedom on that toss up. cause it is a toss up, you don't know what the result of hte punches was until after the fact. or perhaps maybe the DA or jury would see how easily scenario two could've been the result had you not intervened

but man, the likelihood of losing your freedom or life whenever you pull a gun has me very apprehensive. i think i generally need to see guns or knives to use a gun.

You’re not wrong, but it’s not based on what ultimately happened. That’s why you can pull an air soft gun on someone, they shoot you, and are acquitted. It’s based on how a reasonable person would feel AT THE TIME of the attack. Quite honestly, the fact it was late evening and miles from anywhere makes it even more appropriate.

 

[KB_]

These guys will more than likely have some pretty bad ptsd, will need as much mental therapy as physical.

As one who suffers from what I would say is minor ptsd. I agree, and I hope they get ahead of it.

 

[Bigjay73]

As one who suffers from what I would say is minor ptsd. I agree, and I hope they get ahead of it.

I hope you do as well

 

[noharleyyet]

You’re not wrong, but it’s not based on what ultimately happened. That’s why you can pull an air soft gun on someone, they shoot you, and are acquitted. It’s based on how a reasonable person would feel AT THE TIME of the attack. Quite honestly, the fact it was late evening and miles from anywhere makes it even more appropriate.

Trust but verify...

 

[TOGIE]

You’re not wrong, but it’s not based on what ultimately happened. That’s why you can pull an air soft gun on someone, they shoot you, and are acquitted. It’s based on how a reasonable person would feel AT THE TIME of the attack. Quite honestly, the fact it was late evening and miles from anywhere makes it even more appropriate.

agree there too. i believe someone pointing a fake gun at you is the quickest way to get justifiably shot by anyone, including law enforcement. cause it's a gun, even if fake, it's a gun. and the argument can hold true for fists. but it's not cut and dry anymore.

man, the fists. to me, it's when it's fists that i think you may sweat yourself to death while the jury deliberates.

 

[PrairieHunter]

There are certainly a lot of questions about this incident from the lack of any vehicle pics, tag #'s, and why no shots were fired when there were multiple firearms nearby.

Maybe this was unprovoked, the guy got scared to pull his gun in a scuffle, both got beat down, and then dad was afraid to grab the gun as soon as they let up on his boy. Boy was not capable of shooting after getting beat up. Then they just let the greenies drive away with no tag, pics, and no shots fired.


Or maybe there is more to the story.

Hopefully in time the truth will come out.

 

[DouglasR]

Just because you get your ass kicked doesn’t mean you get to shoot somebody.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

There are certainly a lot of questions about this incident from the lack of any vehicle pics, tag #'s, and why no shots were fired when there were multiple firearms nearby.

Maybe this was unprovoked, the guy got scared to pull his gun in a scuffle, both got beat down, and then dad was afraid to grab the gun as soon as they let up on his boy. Boy was not capable of shooting after getting beat up. Then they just let the greenies drive away with no tag, pics, and no shots fired.


Or maybe there is more to the story.

Hopefully in time the truth will come out.

Dad was not there. He is relaying the story from his son. It was his son and a friend of the sons that were beat up.

 

[TheJason]

Just because you get your ass kicked doesn’t mean you get to shoot somebody.

Certainly, but it also doesn’t mean you can’t.

 

[shootbrownelk]

I saw a bumper sticker last week in Cody that read "Colorado: Wyoming's Mexico".

Where can I get one? LOL

 

[PrairieHunter]

Dad was not there. He is relaying the story from his son. It was his son and a friend of the sons that were beat up.

Thanks.

So at around the same time

2 kids out hunting and one is attacked by a griz, other jumps on bear to save friends life risking his own in the process.

2 kids out hunting with a sidearm, jumped by drunk greenies, no real response. No driving away, no pics of trucks, no tag #'s, no shots fired.



Interesting how different things went.

 

[Scott85]

which is where the rub is, the jury determines exactly whether the perceived threat of "serious bodily injury or imminent death" justified it.

more to my real point, i think what constitutes serious bodily injury or imminent death is more likely than not to be greatly overestimated in the vast majority of situations, especially when the attacker is basically a male attacking a similar sized male. i think the results of the scuffle relevant to this thread prove pulling the gun would've likely been a bad idea. though, we don't know exactly what and how it went down.

Well 18 U.S. Code § 2246 would be a place to start to determine “serious bodily harm”

(4) the term “serious bodily injury” means bodily injury that involves a substantial risk of death, unconsciousness, extreme physical pain, protracted and obvious disfigurement, or protracted loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member, organ, or mental faculty;