Snowmobilers catch wolves in action

[fowladdict]

JC,

What the???? You've gone from being serious about the issue to not so serious. Anyways, if you read what I said earlier you would see that I didn't think the elk population decrease in YNP was all caused from the wolves. But simply the fact that the population is nearly 1/2 of what it was at the time of the wolf reintro...coincidence? I think not. But I also don't think the wolves killed all 8,000 elk. Anyways, as I stated earlier I don't think YNP is a good example because from what i've seen a lot of the elk at YNP just aren't as wild as the elk outside of YNP, making them a lot more suspectible to predators.

Ithaca,
I wasn't saying bears don't eat elk...plus your articles seem to date around the time of the wolf re-into or prior to. I still think based on talking to several hunters who hunted certain units in Idaho prior to 1995 and after it and listening to their stories is proof enough for me that wolves are affecting the herds.

Anyways, I posted these photos to share and never had any intentions of debating anybody. Oh well...everybody has their own opinion. As JC seems to think the wolves were killed by the snowmobilers armed with their numchucks.

 

[fowladdict]

Ithaca...I just saw the other part of your second post regarding the wolves. Sorry I'll read it again. I'm finding different facts and opinions on this issue everywhere.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Jose, them snowmobiles are nasty aren't they? But this is what a real predator kill looks like. However, the particular bear won't be doing that anymore. This was his last calf. Dumbass should have ran instead of standing around wanting to guard his breakfast.

 

[Hangar18]

Greenhorn,
What was the increase in the number of snowmobiles entering YNP during the time of the population decline? Given the pictures at the start of this thread that show the impact of snowmobiles on elk, shouldn't they be factored in to the discussion?

Go back and read exactly what impact snowmobiles had on these two dead elk. Both elk were dead when they arrived on the scene. Unchanged condition when they left the scene.



The following is content from two emails received last summer during the Winter Use Scoping for the new EIS for Yellowstone National Park.

From the first email from Michael J. Yochim, Ph.D., National Park Service:

Parkwide we estimate 2200-2700 ungulates (mostly elk, but also including moose, deer, bighorn sheep, pronghorn antelope, and bison) are killed by wolves per year. This is out of an estimated 30,000-35,000 elk that use YNP sometime during the year. Prior to the beginning of mandatory commercial guiding for all snowmobilers, we lost 1 or 2 animals due to snowmobiles per year. Since 2003, when guiding was instituted, there have been no wildlife fatalities. Thanks for your interest.

From a subsequent email from Michael J. Yochim, Ph.D., National Park Service, in answer to a request of numbers:

0 - ungulates killed by snowmobile in Yellowstone (2003, 2004, 2005)
73 - ungulates were killed by automobiles in Yellowstone (2005 only)
2200-2700 - estimate of ungulates killed by wolves each year

I'll let you do the hard math here.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hangar,
I think those numbers are a bit suspect, when you consider that there are 35000 Elk in YNP and they claim Snowmobiles killed none, whereas there are far less than 35K elk in Garden Valley and we have pictures in this thread of two dead elk. And we both know how many snowmobiles frequent the Garden Valley area.

 

[Muledeer4me]

Good post hanger.




We all understand that bears and cats are killing elk ,most people also know that the wolves are haveing a big impact on elk numbers.
The part that a few posters (treehuggers) don't seem to understand is that --We didn't need another large predator tossed into the mix adding to the numbers of elk and deer being killed.



Elkgunner (Jose) & Ithaca ,If the wolves aren't having a big effect on numbers I doubt Idaho would be in such a big rush to kill wolves.
We all need to remember who it was that was in favor of bring the wolf back in the first place.
It was the same type of people that hate snowmachines,ATV and ranchers .






State seeks OK to kill wolves to save elk





Edition Date: 04-05-2006

[Idaho wildlife officials on Tuesday formally asked the federal government for authority to kill most of the gray wolves in a pack roaming along the Montana border. Idaho believes the pack is decimating an elk herd.

The state submitted a proposal to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service that seeks permission to kill as many as 43 of the estimated 58 wolves in a pack roaming the Lolo Pass and Clearwater River Basin area of northcentral Idaho. After eliminating that many wolves in the first year of the plan, state game managers would continue to kill more wolves over the next four years to keep the Lolo pack no larger than 14 to 23 wolves.

Jim Unsworth, the Idaho Fish and Game Department's wildlife bureau chief, said killing the wolves is critical to rescuing the dwindling wild elk herd in the popular Lolo hunting zone.

"The current predation rate on adult cow elk by wolves is not allowing the herd to bounce back to previous population levels," he said. "We believe the habitat conditions would allow for higher elk populations if the wolf population was not at its current level."

Federal officials said they would immediately begin a scientific review of the proposal to determine whether the first lethal control of an animal classified under the Endangered Species Act was warranted.

"This is unprecedented but it is not unforeseen," Jeff Foss, Fish and Wildlife's Boise field office supervisor, said after meeting with state officials to receive the proposal Tuesday afternoon.

At the urging of Idaho Gov. Dirk Kempthorne, now President Bush's nominee for U.S. interior secretary, the federal government in January turned over to the state day-to-day management of the wolves reintroduced in central Idaho in 1995 as a "experimental, nonessential population" under the Endangered Species Act. Wolves north of Interstate 90 in the Idaho Panhandle remain classified as an endangered species and are still under the control of the Fish and Wildlife Service.

But the deal signed in January by Kempthorne and outgoing Interior Secretary Gale Norton gave the state primary management responsibility for the estimated 512 gray wolves living south of I-90.

The state's application on Tuesday is the first test of just how far that responsibility extends. Under a rule revised by the Bush administration last year in the Endangered Species Act, the state can ask for the federal government's permission to kill wolves that are causing "unacceptable impacts" to wild elk, deer and moose. Before that revision, only trapping and relocation of wolves was allowed.

Now, the federal agency will review the state's proposal to determine whether the rationale behind iy is scientifically valid, whether the data the state has collected on elk numbers justifies wolf removal, how the elks' response to the reduction of wolves will be measured, and whether eliminating 75 percent of the pack would put the wolf population below minimum recovery levels.

The federal agency did not say when its review of the Idaho proposal will be complete, although members of the Idaho Fish and Game Commission were told at their meeting last month the process could take several months and would likely spark a federal lawsuit from conservationists.

Foss said Fish and Wildlife still must determine if the state proposal raises issues that were not addressed in a 1994 federal environmental impact statement on the wolf reintroduction plan. If the agency determines that document does not adequately cover the wolf killing proposal, a supplemental environmental impact statement would be ordered.]

 

[Muledeer4me]

[whereas there are far less than 35K elk in Garden Valley and we have pictures in this thread of two dead elk. And we both know how many snowmobiles frequent the Garden Valley area.]

Jose,how many wolves are in the garden valley area?
Would your post be different if the picture posted had been taken by crosscountry skiers? Or are they also on your to ban list LOL

 

[fowladdict]

JC,

Are you calling my buddy's dad a liar?

 

[Hangar18]

Hangar,
I think those numbers are a bit suspect, when you consider that there are 35000 Elk in YNP and they claim Snowmobiles killed none, whereas there are far less than 35K elk in Garden Valley and we have pictures in this thread of two dead elk. And we both know how many snowmobiles frequent the Garden Valley area.

That doesn't really explain why the numbers might be suspect. Unless you are backing up the snowplow theory and even then that wouldn't explain why the number might be suspect.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hangar,
You think it was wolves that caused the snowplow accident up there??? That sure would explain a lot. Good catch on your part. What a mixed up world where you have snowmobiles wantonly killing elk, and wolves causing snowplow accidents.

 

[Hangar18]

I do. Too bad for the snowplow though. If the snowplow had killed the wolves instead of allowing the elk to kill it, there would be more coyotes for us snowmobilers to run over with our Polaris sleds.

Did you make it sledding to West Mountain this year? I posted some pictures of Dinger & I in Fireside.