Ultrahunter
Active member
Yeah DD Just yankin your crank about being from California, hell I'm from Oregon which is not a whole lot better.
Snowmobilers catch wolves in action
- Thread starter fowladdict
- Start date
califelkslayer
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I'm from Kalif and I DO wish they would introduce wolves in this state. I'll even volunteer to help. Wolves in L.A, S.F, and Sacto would solve some of our problems. I've got several mountain lions around my house they can have those too.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Here's a letter to the editor from Friday's Missoulian. This guy must be a "Frisco Liberal" that got lost and ended up in Montana. We'll send him back to you, along with a truck load of mutts. No charge!
Use science, not economics
I'd like to propose to Montana FWP a unique concept for the marauding elk in the North Hills. It's called "science based management." It requires no licenses (a negative for FWP), and no bullets whizzing over our heads as we hike the hills. It only requires the agency to look at predator-prey relationships which involve science rather than the usual management tool, economics, which is all about selling licenses and pleasing the livestock industry.
It's interesting that in Idaho, cougar and bear quotas have been increased in an attempt to increase elk numbers. Why? Because cougars and bear eat elk, especially cows and calves. I seem to recall that extra permits were issued last fall for cougar hunting in the Rattlesnake Wilderness. If there are too many elk, why would any permits be issued?
I'm all about a moratorium on both cougar and bear hunting in the Rattlesnake Wilderness until there's a reduction in the elk herd. The elk will retreat to the high country for the spring, summer, and fall where their numbers will be reduced by predation, a natural balance will be achieved, and the livestock people and developers will be happy.
Jerry Black, Missoula
Use science, not economics
I'd like to propose to Montana FWP a unique concept for the marauding elk in the North Hills. It's called "science based management." It requires no licenses (a negative for FWP), and no bullets whizzing over our heads as we hike the hills. It only requires the agency to look at predator-prey relationships which involve science rather than the usual management tool, economics, which is all about selling licenses and pleasing the livestock industry.
It's interesting that in Idaho, cougar and bear quotas have been increased in an attempt to increase elk numbers. Why? Because cougars and bear eat elk, especially cows and calves. I seem to recall that extra permits were issued last fall for cougar hunting in the Rattlesnake Wilderness. If there are too many elk, why would any permits be issued?
I'm all about a moratorium on both cougar and bear hunting in the Rattlesnake Wilderness until there's a reduction in the elk herd. The elk will retreat to the high country for the spring, summer, and fall where their numbers will be reduced by predation, a natural balance will be achieved, and the livestock people and developers will be happy.
Jerry Black, Missoula
MarvB
Well-known member
I'm a tad confused at the logic here....predation increases prey species??
You can keep him Paul, Mizzzzzola needs a couple more sets of dreadlocks and Kali's got enough freaks to last us a lifetime hump
Ithaca 37
New member
"It's interesting that in Idaho, cougar and bear quotas have been increased in an attempt to increase elk numbers."
Here's what else is interesting. All those big talkin' fat-assed drunks in the bars claim they're going to shoot a wolf when there's a season, but they don't kill a lion and bear every year. Since the lions and bears kill just as many elk as the wolves do, wouldn't it make sense to shoot a lion and bear every year? It would certainly be a lot easier than hunting wolves.
Here's what else is interesting. All those big talkin' fat-assed drunks in the bars claim they're going to shoot a wolf when there's a season, but they don't kill a lion and bear every year. Since the lions and bears kill just as many elk as the wolves do, wouldn't it make sense to shoot a lion and bear every year? It would certainly be a lot easier than hunting wolves.
MarvB
Well-known member
I bear hunt every year (though not always successful in shootin one by any margin) and damn sure would chase lions if this fugged up state allowed it...that being said, Ith where is the logic is this guys letter? Does that mean that in Idaho's two bear zones their "goal" is to double the elk herd 
...just trying to figure out what his point is....hey, how'd you read BHR's post anyhow- isn't he off limits???
...just trying to figure out what his point is....hey, how'd you read BHR's post anyhow- isn't he off limits???
BuzzH
Well-known member
Ithaca I agree, with one exception...lions and bears kill WAY MORE big-game than wolves in Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho...by a long shot.
Ithaca 37
New member
MarvB, "hey, how'd you read BHR's post anyhow- isn't he off limits??? " I read what you quoted from BHR's post. I can't comment on the logic in the letter you refer to, since I can't see what BHR posted, and I'm sure not going to take him off "Ignore".
Buzz, you're right about the total kill by bears and lions. When I hear guys bitchin' about wolves killing big game I love to watch them when I ask them why they don't kill a bear and lion every year, if they're so concerned about predation on big game.
Buzz, you're right about the total kill by bears and lions. When I hear guys bitchin' about wolves killing big game I love to watch them when I ask them why they don't kill a bear and lion every year, if they're so concerned about predation on big game.
fowladdict
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- Aug 20, 2005
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Ithaca,
I somewhat understand your logic, but I don’t agree with you. There has been too much proof that in the areas where the wolves have been re-introduced and elk had once thrived, the wolves have had a far greater impact on the herds than that of the managed cougar and bear. Bottom line is one wolf will kill more elk in its lifetime that one bear or cougar will.
Prior to the wolf re-introduction, bears and cougars (managed) did not have such a disturbing impact on the overall populations of elk, so there was not much need to panic. Therefore your question about bears and cougars doesn't justify the issue. Just my two cents
I somewhat understand your logic, but I don’t agree with you. There has been too much proof that in the areas where the wolves have been re-introduced and elk had once thrived, the wolves have had a far greater impact on the herds than that of the managed cougar and bear. Bottom line is one wolf will kill more elk in its lifetime that one bear or cougar will.
Prior to the wolf re-introduction, bears and cougars (managed) did not have such a disturbing impact on the overall populations of elk, so there was not much need to panic. Therefore your question about bears and cougars doesn't justify the issue. Just my two cents
JoseCuervo
New member
fowladdict,
Please read on the study done on elk mortality in YNP that examined the numbers of elk killed by bears vs. wolves.
Please read on the study done on elk mortality in YNP that examined the numbers of elk killed by bears vs. wolves.
fowladdict
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JC,
I guess I'm an idiot...but, YNP? What is it and where do I find it?
I guess I'm an idiot...but, YNP? What is it and where do I find it?
JoseCuervo
New member
YNP is a large park at the corners of Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. They have Wolves, Bears, Elk and geysers.....
Would you be kind enough to share your "too much proof" that shows Wolves kill all the Elk?
Would you be kind enough to share your "too much proof" that shows Wolves kill all the Elk?
fowladdict
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JC,
We got an SA on our hands huh? Guess I'll back off a bit. My intention was to ask where do i find this study at YNP you are talking about.
We got an SA on our hands huh? Guess I'll back off a bit.
My intention was to ask where do i find this study at YNP you are talking about.
JoseCuervo
New member
fowladdict
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JC,
Interesting info. One thing that bugs me about your info is that the study is done in Yellowstone Park where it is a very different environment in which you can easily get within 20' of an elk. But if you wanna use some yellowstone numbers: In 1995 when wolves were re-introduced to yellowstone there were approx. 19K head and today there are about 11K. I'm sure this factor is not only due to wolves, but the reintro of the pooches sure had something to do with it. I think the issue should be looked at beyond Yellowstone.
Here is my "proof"...I believe it came from the Idaho Statesman. (All in all everyone has there own opinion).
One scientist, Tom Bergerud from British Columbia, Canada, had more dire predictions about wolves.
“I predict that you´re going to have major impacts from wolves in this state,” he said. “I predict a major elk decline.”
He said he saw wolves repeatedly depress moose, caribou and elk populations while studying them throughout Canada, and in some cases they wiped out local populations of caribou.
“I´ve watches herd after herd (of caribou) go extinct across Canada,” he said
.
Bergerud said wolves will concentrate on one prey species until it is depressed, then move onto another when it was available.
He also said reducing wolf numbers led to increases in prey animals, but wolf reductions had to be done over a wide area and for long periods of time.
“As far as I´m concerned, wolves do not self regulate,” Bergerud said. “I know it´s pie in the sky, but you have to have management.”
Interesting info. One thing that bugs me about your info is that the study is done in Yellowstone Park where it is a very different environment in which you can easily get within 20' of an elk. But if you wanna use some yellowstone numbers: In 1995 when wolves were re-introduced to yellowstone there were approx. 19K head and today there are about 11K. I'm sure this factor is not only due to wolves, but the reintro of the pooches sure had something to do with it.
I think the issue should be looked at beyond Yellowstone.Here is my "proof"...I believe it came from the Idaho Statesman. (All in all everyone has there own opinion).
One scientist, Tom Bergerud from British Columbia, Canada, had more dire predictions about wolves.
“I predict that you´re going to have major impacts from wolves in this state,” he said. “I predict a major elk decline.”
He said he saw wolves repeatedly depress moose, caribou and elk populations while studying them throughout Canada, and in some cases they wiped out local populations of caribou.
“I´ve watches herd after herd (of caribou) go extinct across Canada,” he said
.
Bergerud said wolves will concentrate on one prey species until it is depressed, then move onto another when it was available.
He also said reducing wolf numbers led to increases in prey animals, but wolf reductions had to be done over a wide area and for long periods of time.
“As far as I´m concerned, wolves do not self regulate,” Bergerud said. “I know it´s pie in the sky, but you have to have management.”
JoseCuervo
New member
I think Bergerund was pretty much discredited. I didn't think anybody ever used him as "proof".
Are you trying to say that the wolves decreased the 19k wolves in YNP down to 11k?
Was 19k withink the carrying capacity of the habitat?
Are you trying to say that the wolves decreased the 19k wolves in YNP down to 11k?
Was 19k withink the carrying capacity of the habitat?
Ithaca 37
New member
fowl., "Bear and Mountain Lions
Reduce Elk Calf Survival
Healthy elk populations are found throughout most of Idaho. The elk in the Clearwater Basin, however, have dramatically declined over the past decade.
Because of this decline, the Idaho Fish and Game Commission reduced the number of bull elk rifle tags available to hunters. Fish and Game also increased harvest opportunities on the healthy bear and lion populations and is aggressively working with public land managers to improve elk habitat through the Clearwater Elk Habitat Initiative.
In 1997, Fish and Game initiated a research project to investigate the possible causes of the declining elk population. After gathering information for three years, it is apparent that predation by black bears and mountain lions is an important mortality factor in the study areas. Predation has claimed about 80 percent of the radio-collared elk calves in the Game Management Unit-12 study area and about 30 percent of the calves in Game Management Unit-15.
However, it is also apparent that factors — especially habitat quality, the physical condition of the cows, and pregnancy rates — also play central roles in elk production. The research goal is to develop a better understanding of the role these factors play, which would serve as the underpinnings of a sound management approach. The proposed manipulation of the black bear and mountain lion populations on a small portion of Game Management Unit-12 study area is designed to improve this understanding.
This proposed treatment area is a 200-square-mile portion of the 12,000-square-mile Clearwater Region. Biologists estimate one to two bears per square mile in the study area (200-400 total bears). The research goal is to reduce the black bear and mountain lion population by 50 percent and continue to measure elk calf survival, cow pregnancy and physical condition, and other variables.
Recently, the Department of Agriculture, Wildlife Services, and Fish and Game developed a scoping document outlining a proposal to manipulate black bear and mountain lion densities on this treatment area. The intent of the scoping document was to gather public comment and opinion. Wildlife Services received more than 300 responses from entities interested in the Elk Research Project, many of which were concerned about the use of Wildlife Services to reduce the bear and lion populations. Many responded that hunters and outfitters should be allowed to harvest more bears and lions to meet the research project objectives.
After reviewing the public input and evaluating options, Wildlife Services and Fish and Game have decided to suspend work on the original proposal. The overall Elk Research Project will proceed and, as an alternative, Fish and Game will pursue traditional harvest methods to increase black bear and mountain lion harvest, and thus manipulate those populations to meet project objectives.
This project will provide a better understanding of the relative role predation, habitat quality and structure, elk physical condition and pregnancy rates, elk densities and other factors play in elk population dynamics. The results will help managers work toward a balance between elk, bears and lions to meet wildlife objectives.
http://www.westernhunter.com/Pages/Vol03Issue07/iaelk.html
Reduce Elk Calf Survival
Healthy elk populations are found throughout most of Idaho. The elk in the Clearwater Basin, however, have dramatically declined over the past decade.
Because of this decline, the Idaho Fish and Game Commission reduced the number of bull elk rifle tags available to hunters. Fish and Game also increased harvest opportunities on the healthy bear and lion populations and is aggressively working with public land managers to improve elk habitat through the Clearwater Elk Habitat Initiative.
In 1997, Fish and Game initiated a research project to investigate the possible causes of the declining elk population. After gathering information for three years, it is apparent that predation by black bears and mountain lions is an important mortality factor in the study areas. Predation has claimed about 80 percent of the radio-collared elk calves in the Game Management Unit-12 study area and about 30 percent of the calves in Game Management Unit-15.
However, it is also apparent that factors — especially habitat quality, the physical condition of the cows, and pregnancy rates — also play central roles in elk production. The research goal is to develop a better understanding of the role these factors play, which would serve as the underpinnings of a sound management approach. The proposed manipulation of the black bear and mountain lion populations on a small portion of Game Management Unit-12 study area is designed to improve this understanding.
This proposed treatment area is a 200-square-mile portion of the 12,000-square-mile Clearwater Region. Biologists estimate one to two bears per square mile in the study area (200-400 total bears). The research goal is to reduce the black bear and mountain lion population by 50 percent and continue to measure elk calf survival, cow pregnancy and physical condition, and other variables.
Recently, the Department of Agriculture, Wildlife Services, and Fish and Game developed a scoping document outlining a proposal to manipulate black bear and mountain lion densities on this treatment area. The intent of the scoping document was to gather public comment and opinion. Wildlife Services received more than 300 responses from entities interested in the Elk Research Project, many of which were concerned about the use of Wildlife Services to reduce the bear and lion populations. Many responded that hunters and outfitters should be allowed to harvest more bears and lions to meet the research project objectives.
After reviewing the public input and evaluating options, Wildlife Services and Fish and Game have decided to suspend work on the original proposal. The overall Elk Research Project will proceed and, as an alternative, Fish and Game will pursue traditional harvest methods to increase black bear and mountain lion harvest, and thus manipulate those populations to meet project objectives.
This project will provide a better understanding of the relative role predation, habitat quality and structure, elk physical condition and pregnancy rates, elk densities and other factors play in elk population dynamics. The results will help managers work toward a balance between elk, bears and lions to meet wildlife objectives.
http://www.westernhunter.com/Pages/Vol03Issue07/iaelk.html
Ithaca 37
New member
Here's some more:
In 1975 black bear were found to be the principal predator on elk-calf-mortality studies in the Lochsa-Selway Divide country. (that's in Idaho)
http://www.ictws.org/updates/fiftyyears.html
"In his research, Vucetich discovered that although wolves were partially responsible, weather and hunting were the main contributors to the decline. The park has had a seven-year drought, and the number of elk permits has been increased—both occurring at the same time the wolf population was rapidly building.
I called Doug Smith who supervises wolf research in the park for the National Park Service to ask about this, and he agreed that the decline was “multi-causal”—a combination of wolves, hunting and drought, with one additional culprit, the grizzly bear, which has also nearly tripled its numbers in the past twenty-five years, going from a low of about 150 animals to 600 or more.
In the Yellowstone Science magazine, renown wolf biologist Dave Mech and several co-researchers side with Smith, concluding that bears (both grizzly and black) have a big impact on elk numbers, probably greater than wolves. In fact, they discovered that bears kill roughly six times more elk calves than wolves do.
Elk calves are actually quite vulnerable because they stay in place near danger instead of running. In May and June, bears sigzag through elk calving areas finding many easy meals.........."
http://www.klamathbasincrisis.org/wolves/eatbison112805.htm
In 1975 black bear were found to be the principal predator on elk-calf-mortality studies in the Lochsa-Selway Divide country. (that's in Idaho)
http://www.ictws.org/updates/fiftyyears.html
"In his research, Vucetich discovered that although wolves were partially responsible, weather and hunting were the main contributors to the decline. The park has had a seven-year drought, and the number of elk permits has been increased—both occurring at the same time the wolf population was rapidly building.
I called Doug Smith who supervises wolf research in the park for the National Park Service to ask about this, and he agreed that the decline was “multi-causal”—a combination of wolves, hunting and drought, with one additional culprit, the grizzly bear, which has also nearly tripled its numbers in the past twenty-five years, going from a low of about 150 animals to 600 or more.
In the Yellowstone Science magazine, renown wolf biologist Dave Mech and several co-researchers side with Smith, concluding that bears (both grizzly and black) have a big impact on elk numbers, probably greater than wolves. In fact, they discovered that bears kill roughly six times more elk calves than wolves do.
Elk calves are actually quite vulnerable because they stay in place near danger instead of running. In May and June, bears sigzag through elk calving areas finding many easy meals.........."
http://www.klamathbasincrisis.org/wolves/eatbison112805.htm
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
There's no doubt that all the factors combined contribute to the lower numbers of elk in and around YNP. But...
The avg. age of elk taken (cows and bulls) on the late migratory hunts is around 10yrs old. Most the elk around are elderly, which is an obvious result of calves getting nailed every year by predators for a long time, about when wolves were introduced in the mid 90s.
Elk numbers were undoubtedly too high at the 19K mark. But without some level of predator managment, there's the possibility of doom for some herds of elk around YNP.
What they decide to do in the park is one thing, but it's a bummer when some of the adjacent areas take similar hits due to the lack of predator managment outside YNP. It's time to delist grizzlies and wolves and let some of the 2-legged predators step in to help out.
The avg. age of elk taken (cows and bulls) on the late migratory hunts is around 10yrs old. Most the elk around are elderly, which is an obvious result of calves getting nailed every year by predators for a long time, about when wolves were introduced in the mid 90s.
Elk numbers were undoubtedly too high at the 19K mark. But without some level of predator managment, there's the possibility of doom for some herds of elk around YNP.
What they decide to do in the park is one thing, but it's a bummer when some of the adjacent areas take similar hits due to the lack of predator managment outside YNP. It's time to delist grizzlies and wolves and let some of the 2-legged predators step in to help out.
JoseCuervo
New member
Greenhorn,
What was the increase in the number of snowmobiles entering YNP during the time of the population decline? Given the pictures at the start of this thread that show the impact of snowmobiles on elk, shouldn't they be factored in to the discussion?
What was the increase in the number of snowmobiles entering YNP during the time of the population decline? Given the pictures at the start of this thread that show the impact of snowmobiles on elk, shouldn't they be factored in to the discussion?
